New Red Wolf Report

[elh0102]

About three weeks ago bought a standard power, .22 Red Wolf, and I thought my experience was worth sharing. The chrono run from AOA and test target looked fine, so I was anxious to shoot. Almost immediately I experienced accuracy issues, unexplained flyers, all power levels, all pellets. I began eliminating variables, switched scopes, tried different pellets, did chrono tests, etc. Finally, I decided the issue had to be the barrel. I cleaned frequently using a pull-through and Ballistol. It would take 12-15 patches before appearing relatively clean, and accuracy would generally improve for a very short shooting session. This repeated numerous times. In contact with AOA, it was recommended that I either return it, or, try a JB Paste cleaning first and check results. I did the latter, as I believe that was going to be their first action to attempt a remedy. The results have been impressive. I have done two JB polishing sessions, and accuracy may be improved to an acceptable and longer lasting level. Yesterday, shot 40-50 pellets with good accuracy. When I cleaned the barrel last night, it took only three patches of Ballistol before they came out looking good, far removed from the results before the JB treatment. So, real accuracy testing and pellet selection can now begin.

I am a former CF and RF benchrest shooter, so barrels and barrel cleaning are not new to me. The CF barrels were all hand lapped, and I never had an issue similar to my RW situation. I had a couple of RF barrels that needed some cleaning and break in, but again, nothing like the RW barrel. My lesson, the JB treatment, so far, appears to have really worked. The folks at AOA have been totally supportive, and remain willing to replace the barrel if I request it. I appreciate their understanding, and, that might be my ultimate fix, but at this time I am optimistic the barrel may be coming around. 

Also, I seem to have been fortunate in missing the problem many folks have reported with the magazine. Mine shoots fine, in fact, it seems as well as from the tray. Because of side wheel interference, I had to convert the magazine to right-side operation, an exercise that proved more challenging than expected. If not for an unbelievable piece of luck with the pin, I would be waiting for a new one. I dropped it on a very cluttered garage work bench, with an even more cluttered floor beneath it. Amazingly, in its flight to the black hole beneath, it happened to hit, and stick, to the side of a magnetized screw driver tip that was, again luckily, near the top of the heap of junk beneath. I noticed it only by chance when I began examining things piece by piece. So, maybe an omen of better luck to come with the rifle. I digress, my main intent is to encourage people to try the JB treatment on problem barrels, it might work for you.

 

[sonny]

thanks for sharing your experience and results

 

[Element]

Can you explain your use of JB bore paste! Is it pulled through or used in a different manner. Thanks in advance!

 

[whitefox545]

I'm pretty sure that the red wolf has a poly barrel , can you confirm that? I would also like to hear what technique you used to lap the barrel. Thank's in advance!! J.L.

 

[elh0102]

I believe the standard power rifle is not a poly barrel, just the HP. And no, you would not get a good job with the JB using a pull through. It has to be a tight fit, and you need to be able to move back and forth in a scrubbing motion. I suppose you could eventually get a decent job done pulling through, but man, it would take a couple of six packs to ever get it done. Also, I worry about the breech O ring being pulled out if you managed to get it started as tight as it should be used. I used a polished rod and jag, with a patch wrapped for a tight fit. I worked from the muzzle, which is not ideal as you have to be careful to avoid any crown damage. After removing the shroud, I used a plastic muzzle protector that keeps the rod centered. I have a stop ring that can be locked on the rod, and I positioned it to stop my rod depth just short of the breech O ring. Probably the best method, remove the barrel and breech O ring, then scrub from the chamber end. But, lazy by nature, I took this one short cut. Each of my two sessions were probably 20 minutes of polishing. The patch will probably never come out looking clean, but it will gave more gray than black when you get done. 

 

[STO]

Yeah I'm another positive story with JB Bore Paste. My Crown came fouling relatively quickly. I only did one session with JB compound and the fouling issue went away. I use a rigid (relatively) nylon cleaning rod to scrub but also ensure the barrel isn't damaged by the cleaning rod. 

 

[nomojo65]

I’m going to chime in here, not denouncing your methods because they seem to be working for you, but everyone considering this method be very careful! To truly lap a barrel you must use a poured lead lap that is a excact duplicate of your interior profile of your land and grooves this is especially critical in an air rifle barrel!, ( Remember most poly or Reg. Rifled Lw barrels have a choke unless ordered without! ) you can remove enough material to round off edges of these critical lands/grooves not to mention the damage to crown from this process, most if not all barrels are crowned after the lapping procedure. Just my 2 cents not trying to offend or take away from OP subject, I will not speak of this again... 

 

[STO]

I’m going to chime in here, not denouncing your methods because they seem to be working for you, but everyone considering this method be very careful! To truly lap a barrel you must use a poured lead lap that is a excact duplicate of your interior profile of your land and grooves this is especially critical in an air rifle barrel!, ( Remember most poly or Reg. Rifled Lw barrels have a choke unless ordered without! ) you can remove enough material to round off edges of these critical lands/grooves not to mention the damage to crown from this process, most if not all barrels are crowned after the lapping procedure. Just my 2 cents not trying to offend or take away from OP subject, I will not speak of this again...

I can't speak for the OP, but I don't think of it as a denouncement at all. It is a good point to raise, as people should be very skeptical of any and all the "miracle" products which are abrasives you put in your bore. I myself only succumbed to trying it, in the face of all the anti-abrasive dogma, because I knew a new barrel was only 100$. 

Really two things sold me on giving it a try though. First is that most if not all the warnings against it seem to be vague rather than from direct personal experience. While skepticism is good, the lack of clamor from people saying "this product ruined my barrel" seems to speak to it being, not just safe if used absolutely correctly, but reasonably idiot resistant too. Second is that it was recommended by our very own Michael, who said that despite objections from other members he has been using it for years to good effect. 

I would hasten to add that I don't use, or recommend, jb bore paste in place of regular and proper cleaning. I see it as a tool to fix or improve bores which have issues, in this case excessive fouling. Having actually lapped, properly lapped, barrels there is a considerable difference in the amount of material removed this way as well. I don't think of them as comparable processes, as lead lapping will pull a lot more swarf out of your bore than a couple passes with JB. 



As an aside, I have a hypothesis regarding barrel finish, one shared by some other gunsmiths. That hypothesis is that you don't want too polished a bore. There is a phenomenon called "vacuum welding" which is essentially the propensity of metals to, in the absence of some sort of boundary film, literally weld to each other at room temperature. Too aggressive of tooling marks in the bore is obviously no good, however if you want to demonstrate vacuum welding in air the best way to do so is with two polished metal surfaces. My hypothesis is that too polished of a bore will cause this same effect. So, much like a regulator bore, you're looking for an optimized depth and pattern of microscopic scratches in the bore. This keeps a lubricious boundary layer (potentially of air) between the pellet and barrel to prevent lead adhering to the bore. It is just a hypothesis, I have no direct evidence for it, however I'm not the only one who holds it. *shrug* 

 

[elh0102]

There appears to be some confusion between the polishing of a bore with JB Paste, and the lapping process. These are two different processes, and, a patch with JB is not going to ruin rifling or remove a choke. 

Update on the Red Wolf......it ain't fixed. Here are groups I shot this morning at 25 yards, seated with bipod. The three on the left are the Red Wolf. At that point I was beginning to question whether I can shoot! So, I shot the group on the right with my FX Crown. It appears this RW barrel has issues I can't fix. The folks at AOA are sending me a new barrel to try, so at least I can determine for sure that the barrel is the problem. 

 

[nomojo65]

I know I said I wouldn’t say anymore on this subject but... 1- hang with AoA and Daystate, both have treated & worked to resolve any issues I’ve had! 2- I agree you can get a barrel to smooth! Not sure that ratio between copper clad projectiles vs. pure lead? But there is a point whereby you will “lead up” more or quicker because of this!,( highly doubt you would see this type of mico- polish from a mass manufacturer? ) will add this, if you want to have any viable idea of whats going on inside your barrel ( at a minimum) is to use a Gradient lens borescope! IMO now I’m truly done....

 

[STO]

@nomojo65 - wanted to keep chatting about this without derailing the thread, so I sent you a PM. I'm with you on the borescope for sure though. Expensive tools though. 



Those groups are appalling for 25 yards. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they're well over an inch yes? I had a garbage Benjamin nitro piston breakbarrel which shot better than that off-hand no matter how I held it. I'm not sure your barrel is likely responsible for that, unless it is physically loose in the gun, since being off by that much wouldn't be missed. Your barrel isn't likely to shed its crown or grow a burr or something. That looks bad enough to me to potentially be clipping in your moderator or something else dramatic. *shrug* 

 

[Dano46]

There's nothing wrong with your barrel.. I found the fix and now shoot with the mag better groups than with sst... the problems with the mags is well documented on this forum.. but the problem with the sst is not.. just turn your sst around and look for the mark at the bottom that is caused by the pin hitting it and causing inaccuracy.. for sure the RW is a competision winning gun but in some models ( i got .22HP) as i can only talk about the HP guns, there is problems but also a solution.. today for the first time in the months i had the gun and thousands of shot later my RW is able to put 10 shots through one hole at 50 meters no problem with the mag.. wow.. my Coyote .22 could do that from day one but pumping it up after every 25 shots is not fun, good exersize though.. I will share what I did in a few days time as I think my gun shooting good for 1 day is not a proper test to give results as a fact.. so dont sell your RW yet.

 

[elh0102]

Mag or ss tray makes no difference in my rifle, but thanks.

 

[elh0102]

To respond to another poster above, I have eliminated moderator clipping also, shot with different suppressors, and with none.

 

[elh0102]

I'm reminded of the old Sherlock Holmes quote, "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth". I know of nothing else to eliminate but the barrel. 

 

[DeutschKSK]

your groups should look like these.. 30 yards red wolf. With the magazine. Middle is zero and the three others with a pellet are 5 round groups. Good luck. 

 

[elh0102]

Thanks, and yes, with a Crown, Steyr, and RAW, all shooting groups as small as yours in the pic, I'm well aware of how the groups should look, no disagreement there. 

 

[DeutschKSK]

Hope a new barrel works out for you. 

 

[Zebra13]

There appears to be some confusion between the polishing of a bore with JB Paste, and the lapping process. These are two different processes, and, a patch with JB is not going to ruin rifling or remove a choke. 

Update on the Red Wolf......it ain't fixed. Here are groups I shot this morning at 25 yards, seated with bipod. The three on the left are the Red Wolf. At that point I was beginning to question whether I can shoot! So, I shot the group on the right with my FX Crown. It appears this RW barrel has issues I can't fix. The folks at AOA are sending me a new barrel to try, so at least I can determine for sure that the barrel is the problem. 

I’m going to chime in here, not denouncing your methods because they seem to be working for you, but everyone considering this method be very careful! To truly lap a barrel you must use a poured lead lap that is a excact duplicate of your interior profile of your land and grooves this is especially critical in an air rifle barrel!, ( Remember most poly or Reg. Rifled Lw barrels have a choke unless ordered without! ) you can remove enough material to round off edges of these critical lands/grooves not to mention the damage to crown from this process, most if not all barrels are crowned after the lapping procedure. Just my 2 cents not trying to offend or take away from OP subject, I will not speak of this again...

I can't speak for the OP, but I don't think of it as a denouncement at all. It is a good point to raise, as people should be very skeptical of any and all the "miracle" products which are abrasives you put in your bore. I myself only succumbed to trying it, in the face of all the anti-abrasive dogma, because I knew a new barrel was only 100$. 

Really two things sold me on giving it a try though. First is that most if not all the warnings against it seem to be vague rather than from direct personal experience. While skepticism is good, the lack of clamor from people saying "this product ruined my barrel" seems to speak to it being, not just safe if used absolutely correctly, but reasonably idiot resistant too. Second is that it was recommended by our very own Michael, who said that despite objections from other members he has been using it for years to good effect. 

I would hasten to add that I don't use, or recommend, jb bore paste in place of regular and proper cleaning. I see it as a tool to fix or improve bores which have issues, in this case excessive fouling. Having actually lapped, properly lapped, barrels there is a considerable difference in the amount of material removed this way as well. I don't think of them as comparable processes, as lead lapping will pull a lot more swarf out of your bore than a couple passes with JB. 



As an aside, I have a hypothesis regarding barrel finish, one shared by some other gunsmiths. That hypothesis is that you don't want too polished a bore. There is a phenomenon called "vacuum welding" which is essentially the propensity of metals to, in the absence of some sort of boundary film, literally weld to each other at room temperature. Too aggressive of tooling marks in the bore is obviously no good, however if you want to demonstrate vacuum welding in air the best way to do so is with two polished metal surfaces. My hypothesis is that too polished of a bore will cause this same effect. So, much like a regulator bore, you're looking for an optimized depth and pattern of microscopic scratches in the bore. This keeps a lubricious boundary layer (potentially of air) between the pellet and barrel to prevent lead adhering to the bore. It is just a hypothesis, I have no direct evidence for it, however I'm not the only one who holds it. *shrug*

STO,

I believe your hypotheses can be moved into the factual column. It has been a long held opinion by the top barrel makers that a highly polished bore will copper foul more than a bore lapped to more or less the industry standard. I believe the first person I heard say this was Dan Lilja of Lilja Rifle Barrels, whom, it is safe to say, has had his eyeballs in more rifle barrels than you can shake a stick at. Dan knows how to make a barrel. IIRC, he said that a polished bore would allow too much contact with the bullet and would result in increased copper fouling due to a galling like action between bore and bullet. He was talking about jacketed bullets, but I believe the same applies to lead bullets as well, or, in our case, lead pellets. Dan's opinion and yours, while not being in the same pew, are both in the same church.

Most, if not all of the benchrest quality barrel makers will start lapping at 220 grit or so and finish up around 320. I have a borescope and have looked down the bores of several of our top barrel makers finest. Lapping marks are clearly visible running the length of the bore.

Unless airgun barrels are softer than a CF rifle barrel, I doubt one could cause any harm by correctly using JB bore paste on one.

Here's one for you...has anybody tried "firelapping" a rough air rifle bore?



Justin

 

[STO]

Here's one for you...has anybody tried "firelapping" a rough air rifle bore?



Justin

Good to hear I'm not crazy!  

Regarding fire lapping, the thought had occurred to me. I've actually got a couple experimental fire laps for a .22 airgun sitting on my desk as I type this. I was working on this project to (hopefully) improve the performance of my buddy's Diana Stormrider, when people took an interest in my moderator designs and so I shelved the laps for now. The issues are, to my eyes, three fold:

1) Making sure that you neither strip nor retain abrasives in/around the inlet port. 
2) keeping abrasives out of the breech o-ring (which could probably just be replaced or cleaned, rubber doesn't retain abrasives well)
3) Designing a lap which has good bore fit, abrasive holding, and surface area. Pellets, by design, make very little contact with the barrel bore so would cut comparatively little. 



*shrug* Maybe when the weather warms up a bit I'll get back to this project. I certainly wouldn't recommend trying it on anything other than a pretty bad barrel though.