New hunting opportunity

There is a new hunting opportunity for us living in the Pacific Northwest


barrel-owl~2.jpg
 
Thank you, Septicdeath, for this post. This kind of thing I nerd-out on. For more information, see here:
Note the actual Management Plan, and that it says Public Comments can be submitted until 16 January here:
— Internet: https://www.regulations.gov. Follow the instructions for submitting comments on Docket No. FWS-R1-ES-2022-0074

I'm considering submitting something along the lines of:
---draft---check the edit dates---
Comment on Draft Barred Owl Management Strategy

Thank you for receiving public comment on the Barred Owl Management Strategy. I would respectfully like to make two points on the matter.

First, while culling the invasive common species can and often does allow the resident endangered or threatened species to recover, in this case the species are very similar, so much that they interbreed. In this case, I am concerned that the spotted owl is being displaced and/or hybridized with the barred owl, because in this location the barred owl is actually more ecologically fit. Given the predicted changes in climate and human incursion to their environment, perhaps it would be best to let the owls sort their evolution out. Barred owls will be better than no owls at all.

The second point is that, if in the end the barred owls are culled, the guidelines specify "firearms" and particularly shotguns (p. 110-113). I respectfully suggest that you also consider the use of high-powered, small caliber airguns or air-rifles for this task, for the following reasons:

The shooting distance is recommended to be 30 yards or less, an ideal distance for airgun hunting.
At this distance, airguns are quite accurate, and have an effective accuracy comparable with the recommended shotguns.

At this distance, high powered, small caliber airguns have sufficient power (~12 to 40 foot pounds) to humanely dispatch a bird the size of a barred owl (0.5 to 1kg). This is similar in size to an American crow or squirrel, which are routinely taken with airguns at that power level. Airgunners typically train for headshots on such quarry, and often train shooting up into trees.

The guidelines specify shooting using a scope with night imaging capability, and airguns are very often outfitted with these as they see use in other nighttime pest control (rats, rabbits).

The unleaded or non-lead projectiles (pellets) that you require are readily available for airguns, and are accurate at this distance.

Airguns are very quiet, and will not disturb nearby wildlife or nesting owls.

Airguns are relatively safe for downrange wildlife, as the diabolo shaped pellets are inherently high drag projectiles and do not carry damaging energy very far. A .177 diabolo projectile is effectively out of energy by 100 yards, a .22 by 150 yards and a .25 by 200 yards, well within the guidelines for avoiding damage to neighboring spotted owls. The single airgun projectile is also more surgical with less potental collateral damage than a myriad of birdshot from a shotgun, which has a cone of fire of multiple (tens to hundred) projectiles.

For all these reasons airguns would make a good choice of gun for this management strategy, should it be implemented.

Sincerely,
---end draft---

That all said, the biologist in me thinks it is a complete waste of time to shoot the barred owls. They'll displace the spotted owls anyway and the rest of the ecosystem probably won't notice, what with all the climate change and human incursions. Drop in the bucket. But if they want to shoot 'em up, why not let the airgunners contribute their skills?
 
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Thank you, Septicdeath, for this post. This kind of thing I nerd-out on. For more information, see here:
Note the actual Management Plan, and that it says Public Comments can be submitted until 16 January here:
— Internet: https://www.regulations.gov. Follow the instructions for submitting comments on Docket No. FWS-R1-ES-2022-0074

I'm considering submitting something along the lines of:
---draft---
Comment on Draft Barred Owl Management Strategy

The guidelines mention "firearms" (p. 110-113), and I respectfully suggest that you also consider the use of high-powered, small caliber airguns or air-rifles for this task, for the following reasons:

The shooting distance is recommended to be 30 yards or less; this is an ideal distance for airgun hunting.
At this distance, airguns are quite accurate, easily more accurate per cost of the gun than bullet firearms, and having an effective accuracy comparable with the recommended shotguns.

At this distance, high powered, small caliber airguns have sufficient power (12+ foot pounds) to humanely dispatch a bird the size of a barred owl (0.5 to 1kg). This is similar in size to an American crow or squirrel, which are routinely taken with airguns at that power level. Airgunners typically train for headshots on such quarry, and train shooting up into trees.

Airguns are typically shot using a scope, and often with night or thermal imaging capability, as such airguns see use in other nighttime pest control (rats, rabbits).

Unleaded or non-lead projectiles (pellets) that you require are readily available, and are accurate at this distance.

Airguns are very quiet, and will not disturb nearby wildlife or nesting owls.

Airguns are relatively safe for downrange wildlife, as the diabolo shaped pellets are inherently high drag projectiles and do not carry damaging energy very far. A .177 diabolo projectile is effectively out of energy by 100 yards, a .22 by 150 yards and a .25 by 200 yards, well within the guidelines for avoiding damage to neighboring spotted owls.

Sincerely,
---end draft---

That all said, the biologist in me thinks it is a complete waste of time to shoot the barred owls. They'll displace the spotted owls anyway and the rest of the ecosystem probably won't notice, what with all the climate change and human incursions. Drop in the bucket. But if they want to shoot 'em up, why not let the airgunners contribute their skills?
WOW ! Waiting to see the animal lovers / tree huggers outcries on this one!! Having retired from construction & environmental work , I ve had my share of holdups from various critter /bird / amphibians & plant habitat .
 
Thank you, Septicdeath, for this post. This kind of thing I nerd-out on. For more information, see here:
Note the actual Management Plan, and that it says Public Comments can be submitted until 16 January here:
— Internet: https://www.regulations.gov. Follow the instructions for submitting comments on Docket No. FWS-R1-ES-2022-0074

I'm considering submitting something along the lines of:
---draft---
Comment on Draft Barred Owl Management Strategy

The guidelines specify "firearms" and particularly shotguns (p. 110-113), and I respectfully suggest that you also consider the use of high-powered, small caliber airguns or air-rifles for this task, for the following reasons:

The shooting distance is recommended to be 30 yards or less; this is an ideal distance for airgun hunting.
At this distance, airguns are quite accurate, easily more accurate per cost of the gun than bullet firearms, and having an effective accuracy comparable with the recommended shotguns.

At this distance, high powered, small caliber airguns have sufficient power (~12 to 40 foot pounds) to humanely dispatch a bird the size of a barred owl (0.5 to 1kg). This is similar in size to an American crow or squirrel, which are routinely taken with airguns at that power level. Airgunners typically train for headshots on such quarry, and often train shooting up into trees.

Airguns are typically shot using a scope, and often with night imaging capability, as such airguns see use in other nighttime pest control (rats, rabbits).

Unleaded or non-lead projectiles (pellets) that you require are readily available, and are accurate at this distance.

Airguns are very quiet, and will not disturb nearby wildlife or nesting owls.

Airguns are relatively safe for downrange wildlife, as the diabolo shaped pellets are inherently high drag projectiles and do not carry damaging energy very far. A .177 diabolo projectile is effectively out of energy by 100 yards, a .22 by 150 yards and a .25 by 200 yards, well within the guidelines for avoiding damage to neighboring spotted owls. The single airgun projectile is also more surgical with less potental collateral damage than a myriad of birdshot from a shotgun, which has a cone of fire.

For all these reasons airguns would make a good choice of gun for this management strategy.

Sincerely,
---end draft---

That all said, the biologist in me thinks it is a complete waste of time to shoot the barred owls. They'll displace the spotted owls anyway and the rest of the ecosystem probably won't notice, what with all the climate change and human incursions. Drop in the bucket. But if they want to shoot 'em up, why not let the airgunners contribute their skills?
well I commend your effort to put in for airgunner shooting.. I agree with you that it's probably not going to make a difference whether they are shot or not.. especially since I used to live near Yosemite and they basically shut down logging over the spotted owl and the local town saw mill went and then pretty much all the working class went elsewhere.. no mill job, no loggers, a whole lot less trucking and that in turn made a lot of other businesses close.. did all of that help the spotted owl? not that I could tell.. I never saw a owl in the woods.. and if all the people I knew the only ones that had seen a single spotted owl were the USFS guys that I worked with, because when they shut down logging there was much protests and apparently someone knew where to find a spotted owl and it was left on the ranger station doorstep.. 😢 sad, that if they were in short supply that one was killed just for protest.. I had several native American friends.. they preferred to be called Indians.. but I don't ever remember them being involved with anything about the owls.. and I was good friends with a medicine man and a chief..
but back to your comment to send in about the owls.. I think it's great you are taking the time to get our hobby hopefully into the system for those who want to hunt them.. myself I don't want to hunt them and you did such a good write up, well I wish I could get it in email form so I could sign it and maybe if enough of us did it might make a difference.. worth a try..
I'm going to pm you my email address and if you don't mind somehow putting it in a email, I'll get someone to copy it to PDF so it's a regular letter and sign it and.. oh do you have a address to mail it to?
another thought is to also send it to congressman Cliff Benz.. he gets pretty involved in helping us Oregon people.. not sure what area you are in but I'm in Rogue River Oregon..
now to my only reservation about sending it in.. and also why I'm suggesting the congressman is from my experience around here and when I was up by Corvallis.. seems like a lot of things they put out for public input but then go ahead and decide whatever they want.. which is discouraging but if we have congressman making our voice heard it might get included..
also I don't know how many people you know on agn and if you know how to use the map of members and well I'd suggest if they were all contacted and hopefully they enjoy our hobby to make their voices heard.. way more likely to get it included.. and also what a great way for hopefully get others that might not be involved in airgun hunting to say.. this might be something new to try.. plus even more so if people see, this is a good way to get our kids and younger people into the shooting and hunting.. I just think it's a good way to promote the hobby.
but I'm totally open to hearing what others think..
I will put a few other comments down farther addressing a different part of this thread..
honestly I think you have a good idea
Mark
 
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I like owls and would never shoot one, maybe two, but never just one. Kidding aside I just wouldn’t shoot any owl.
me too.. there's a fair amount of birds I really admire.. owls, crows, ravens, hawks and eagles.. especially our wonderful looking bald eagle..
years ago I had a Cooper's hawk in our hay barn and it seemed like he was tired and asking for help.. I got him a pan of water, it was a dry summer but I couldn't think of anything to give him to eat in case he was weak and hungry.. so just a pan of water.. I was very shocked that when I had my hand out he jumped off the haystack and landed on my arm.. I just stood there in total amazement and just stood there talking to him.. he went back to the haystack but not until after my daughter got the rest of the family so they could see him.. probably have a picture somewhere.. but I was just so amazing.. I did see him drinking water and by the next morning he was gone.. I assume he took rest and flight and went back to patrolling for varmint..
he showed no fear, just like he was tame, or not well and asking for help or something.. myindian friends said he was a spirit sent to me.. and apparently he wasn't coming to take my spirit because that was at least 20 years ago.. I didn't touch or pet him.. just watched in amazement what he did..
I don't know but it was just amazing.. I don't know if he came to tell me something.. but it was a not forgotten experience.. just to see him eye level on the haystack when I was feeding the horses.. and even more amazing how he hopped on my arm when I put the pan of water out for him.. 🤣🤣I don't know my birds well and I spent half of the day looking up hawk to figure out what kind he was..
Mark
 
Every time I’m fortunate enough to see an owl I think it’s a unique rewarding experience. I could never bring myself to shoot one.
Kenny
I totally agree, I find several of the large birds awesome.. like the bald eagle and ravens and crows.. you have to understand that corn 🌽 is my favorite food and I couldn't bring myself to shoot one when I had dozens pulling up my crop of corn that had sprouted just to eat the seeds.. but I finally got them chased off and replanted. also owls I think I have only seen a couple in my life..
but in my same garden I didn't even think twice about shooting jays and robbins that were eating the plants.. and one day a ground squirrel, the neighbors called them gray diggers.. looked like the ground squirrels in California and he decided my corn was growing for him and helped himself and started a hole to live in in the center of the pass.. that was the last straw.. I tried my 177 but the scope was off calibration.. so I grabbed my 22 and he thought the disk was armor to hide in .. but he had to stick his head out and chitter at me and that 22 pellet found his head..
I got dozens of gray squirrels in my yard but they are just after acorns, so I let them be as well..
mark
 
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WOW ! Waiting to see the animal lovers / tree huggers outcries on this one!! Having retired from construction & environmental work , I ve had my share of holdups from various critter /bird / amphibians & plant habitat .
you are totally correct 💯.. I saw it destroyed my hometown and the business.. kind of went dead for 15 years and it picked back up because it was a less expensive place to live since all the jobs went everywhere.. it was even in the USFS law enforcement.. I was in the excavation business and worked a lot for the USFS in station and campground maintenance and I bought a timber hazard sale on my road.. hired a friend, ex logger to do the falling and got stopped by the law enforcement and threatened with arrest if I ran equipment in the creek area half a mile away in the wrong direction.. I told him not a chance id be within a 1/4 mile of the creek, and it was all over a frog that hadn't been seen in the area for over 100 years.. just chapped my hide because he had to not only look at the permit and tree markings but had to have my id.. as if I stole the truck and equipment that had my name on it and he saw me usually weekly at the ranger station, with the same equipment and I was allowed in the restricted to public area where the maintenance division was.. I ended up telling his boss, who I worked for just because of so much harassment and he got reprimanded.. it was a small town and everyone knew me, especially the entire USFS workers.. was a good community and well it was back when a handshake was as good as money in the bank or a signed contract.. did many a job on a handshake.. good old days..
Mark
 
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well I commend your effort to put in for airgunner shooting.. I agree with you that it's probably not going to make a difference whether they are shot or not.. especially since I used to live near Yosemite and they basically shut down logging over the spotted owl and the local town saw mill went and then pretty much all the working class went elsewhere.. no mill job, no loggers, a whole lot less trucking and that in turn made a lot of other businesses close.. did all of that help the spotted owl? not that I could tell.. I never saw a owl in the woods.. and if all the people I knew the only ones that had seen a single spotted owl were the USFS guys that I worked with, because when they shut down logging there was much protests and apparently someone knew where to find a spotted owl and it was left on the ranger station doorstep.. 😢 sad, that if they were in short supply that one was killed just for protest.. I had several native American friends.. they preferred to be called Indians.. but I don't ever remember them being involved with anything about the owls.. and I was good friends with a medicine man and a chief..
but back to your comment to send in about the owls.. I think it's great you are taking the time to get our hobby hopefully into the system for those who want to hunt them.. myself I don't want to hunt them and you did such a good write up, well I wish I could get it in email form so I could sign it and maybe if enough of us did it might make a difference.. worth a try..
I'm going to pm you my email address and if you don't mind somehow putting it in a email, I'll get someone to copy it to PDF so it's a regular letter and sign it and.. oh do you have a address to mail it to?
another thought is to also send it to congressman Cliff Benz.. he gets pretty involved in helping us Oregon people.. not sure what area you are in but I'm in Rogue River Oregon..
now to my only reservation about sending it in.. and also why I'm suggesting the congressman is from my experience around here and when I was up by Corvallis.. seems like a lot of things they put out for public input but then go ahead and decide whatever they want.. which is discouraging but if we have congressman making our voice heard it might get included..
also I don't know how many people you know on agn and if you know how to use the map of members and well I'd suggest if they were all contacted and hopefully they enjoy our hobby to make their voices heard.. way more likely to get it included.. and also what a great way for hopefully get others that might not be involved in airgun hunting to say.. this might be something new to try.. plus even more so if people see, this is a good way to get our kids and younger people into the shooting and hunting.. I just think it's a good way to promote the hobby.
but I'm totally open to hearing what others think..
I will put a few other comments down farther addressing a different part of this thread..
honestly I think you have a good idea
Mark
Here is the snail mail address for written letters:
— U.S. mail: Public Comments Processing; Attn: Docket No. FWS-R1-ES-2022-0074; U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Headquarters, MS: PRB/3W; 5275 Leesburg Pike, Falls Church, VA 22041–3803. Must be postmarked by 16 January.

Mark I can send you a .pdf and a printed copy this weekend, and you are welcome to visit whenever you are in the Bay Area.
We can print "B A R R E D O W L" with pellet holes on blank sheets of paper and send it to FWS as an example of what they're all missing.

Mike
 
That seems odd. I wouldn’t hurt one because I enjoy seeing them(rare) and they eat a ton of rodents.
Like qball and Luis said, I too like owls and if there are that many in a given area, the rodent population must be quite large to support them....remove them and the rodent population explodes.....h'mmm.....
 
Not much chance they will allow the general public to shoot owls.Very likely a permit will be required to do so. Who knows what might be required to qualify for one. They usually come with endless rules about what you can and can't do. When the federal government is involved its always tight restrictions on who and what is allowed.
 
That seems odd. I wouldn’t hurt one because I enjoy seeing them(rare) and they eat a ton of rodents.
As I read it, the rationale is that the spotted owls were native to the area in question, and the barred owls have moved in. Since then, the numbers of spotted owls has decreased and number of barred owls increased. Barred and spotted are also breeding to make hybrids (with some kind of Morse code pattern?) So the management plan is to kill off the barred so that the spotted owls "recover".
I've read this kind of thing before, where the native species is displaced by a newcomer. I imagine that sometimes it is a bigger ecological problem, like iguanas in Florida or carp in the midwest lakes or English sparrows in one's backyard, and killing off the invader is good in the end. But in a case like this the two owls are pretty similar, they are breeding together which tells that they are very similar. The "conservationists" argue that the new genes dilute the bloodlines of the native owls and that somehow that all is bad. But what about the argument that the new owls, or the hybrids, are "fitter" for that environment in that location and are more sucessful because they are better adapted, like Darwinian evolution in action? What if they are fitter, and when faced with some challenge, like climate change or human incursion, the barred owls would survive while the spotted would die out? In that case, killing off the barred owls will leave us with no owls in the end. And yes, a lot of rodents.
 
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As I read it, the rationale is that the spotted owls were native to the area in question, and the barred owls have moved in. Since then, the numbers of spotted owls has decreased and number of barred owls increased. Barred and spotted are also breeding to make hybrids (with some kind of Morse code pattern?) So the management plan is to kill off the barred so that the spotted owls "recover".
I've read this kind of thing before, where the native species is displaced by a newcomer. I imagine that sometimes it is a bigger ecological problem, like iguanas in Florida or carp in the midwest lakes or English sparrows in one's backyard, and killing off the invader is good in the end. But in a case like this the two owls are pretty similar, they are breeding together which tells that they are very similar. The "conservationists" argue that the new genes dilute the bloodlines of the native owls and that somehow that all is bad. But what about the argument that the new owls, or the hybrids, are "fitter" for that environment in that location and are more sucessful because they are better adapted, like Darwinian evolution in action. What if they are fitter, and when faced with some challenge, like climate change or human incursion, the barred owls would survive while the spotted would die out? In that case, killing off the barred owls will leave us with no owls in the end. And yes, a lot of rodents.


Saw that too but it's the same as fox squirrels from the east coast taking over the west coast and pushing out the western grays. In the city and suburbs I don't see western greys at all! However here in CA fox squirrels are considered game species with regulation so at least the state government has no intention of eradicating the invasive fox squirrels to help the native western grey. Granted even if we kill every single fox squirrels the western grey will very unlikely to make a recovery at this point.

To your point, I would rather have the invasive owl that eat rodents then no owls at all! They need to kill 500,000 of them then they clearly waited till the problem is irreversible.........typical! My preference will still be invasive owl vs no owl.
 
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There is a new hunting opportunity for us living in the Pacific Northwest


View attachment 413163
"We're from the government and we're here to screw things up." I agree with previous posters, if they are breeding together with a new species I'm not sure that's a bad thing.
 
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In the late '90's ,I remember when a PA Game official 's statement about the lack of small game in the area we lived . He said ( paraphrasing )that the only way the small game could rebound was to take out the raptors overwhelming population . ( He was correct ) IIRC he was reprimanded& may have lost his job because of the public outcry. It was not the GC's suggestion and they didn't want the flack . The fellow was merely pointing out the facts as he saw them . I hunted G-hogs in the area & many times I observed 12-15 hawks within view. And the people ( sportsman ) yammered about the lack of game :rolleyes: ! Times change as do conditions , sometimes it happens & there's no way to stop them .
 
Raptors overwhelming a local prey population? Possible, but wouldn’t the excess raptors be chased away by the bigger ones? Or, even eaten themselves? Raptors hunt/prey to survive. We humans? Not so much in comparison. I would side with the raptors unless they were causing property damage or killing livestock. Am also in favor of the Guvmint staying out of it. The owls can sort it out amongst themselves…