Yes. That about sums it up. The reason why you have a hard time imagining it is because it's from the future. Nobody but us knows about it. Upvote 0
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- Thread starter Carbonado
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Yes. That about sums it up. The reason why you have a hard time imagining it is because it's from the future. Nobody but us knows about it. 
What exactly do you need that can't be fulfilled by what is currently available? All you have said is that you want a magazine fed pump action but it can't be a pcp, multi pump, or co2. That only leaves a springer or nitro piston. To build such a gun using a spring or gas ram would cost a ton of money as the pump linkage would have to be super complex. Any other uncharted powerplant that might fit your needs would certainly be uber expensive since it would be brand new technology in the airgun world. Either way, your stated wants call for a very expensive gun that doesn't appeal to the masses or it would already be available.
I am not trying to be negative but simply realistic. If such a gun is your ultimate goal and money is no object, I would find a custom builder and you might be able to build your dream gun.
I am not trying to be negative but simply realistic. If such a gun is your ultimate goal and money is no object, I would find a custom builder and you might be able to build your dream gun.
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I understand, but I'm sure there is something they haven't thought of yet. And I'm really looking for a great survival airgun, but if it's an ultimate airgun at the same time I don't mind.
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Daisy made a pump rifle copy of a Remington that has become a collectors item
because most of them are now non-functional = they break
but they sure are nice looking
http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/02/daisys-model-26572-field-master-a-fun-bb-gun-in-the-spittin-image-line/
because most of them are now non-functional = they break
but they sure are nice looking
http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/02/daisys-model-26572-field-master-a-fun-bb-gun-in-the-spittin-image-line/
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A low powered pump springer/gasser would be easy as they already exist as shown above. The problem is making something powerful that has a similar function. I like the idea, but am a pcp guy so I am happy with what is currently available. The problem with your ideal gun is how complicated it would probably be and if it needed fixed, would be come a survival nightmare. That is why a simple multi pump like the millenium pumper really could be a survival savior!! easy to power and easy to fix. I keep a simple old school benji 392 with iron sights as my "survival" gun.
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It works I guess... Unless you wanna fend off an animal or fire multiple shots in rapid succession.
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Sounds like what you really need is a shot gun! The laws of physics are against your idea. If you built a gun like you are asking for that had good power you would not be strong enough to cock it. No one would. You need to have leverage to compress the very strong spring. That's why all spring gun have a long lever of some sort for cocking.
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This thread was worth it just to discover the Inovair MAC!
On the subject of pump action, I had the same thought a while back and didn't find anything out there besides that weird Daisy model 25 with the long stroke and lever that swings down. I then did some rough calculations and found out why.
My HW30 is roughly 16.7% efficient: (6.75 ft-lbs output) / (18lbs * 2.25 ft barrel swing input)
Lets say you want to make a pump action BB gun shooting 5.1gr BBs at 400fps. That's 1.81 ft-lbs output.
Choose a pump stroke of 4 inches (0.33 ft) to be similar to a shotgun. To achieve 1.81ft-lbs output in the fantasy world of 100% efficiency it would take 5.48lbs on the forend to cycle the action. Using a realistic efficiency of 16.7% it would take 32.8lbs. Looks like pump-action is stuck in airsoft territory until someone comes up with a >100% efficient spring powerplant.
I do think a nice pump action PCP would sell well if it was designed with fun as the main goal. I'm thinking less than $500 .22 or .25 , RELIABLE, with a magazine capacity >14 and shot count of >90. I see this being used off-hand shooting at misc fun targets at 10-25yds so some accuracy could be sacrificed to keep the cost down. Weight may be a challenge as lighter is going to be more fun. The AT44 looks like a start, but not quite there.
On the subject of pump action, I had the same thought a while back and didn't find anything out there besides that weird Daisy model 25 with the long stroke and lever that swings down. I then did some rough calculations and found out why.
My HW30 is roughly 16.7% efficient: (6.75 ft-lbs output) / (18lbs * 2.25 ft barrel swing input)
Lets say you want to make a pump action BB gun shooting 5.1gr BBs at 400fps. That's 1.81 ft-lbs output.
Choose a pump stroke of 4 inches (0.33 ft) to be similar to a shotgun. To achieve 1.81ft-lbs output in the fantasy world of 100% efficiency it would take 5.48lbs on the forend to cycle the action. Using a realistic efficiency of 16.7% it would take 32.8lbs. Looks like pump-action is stuck in airsoft territory until someone comes up with a >100% efficient spring powerplant.
I do think a nice pump action PCP would sell well if it was designed with fun as the main goal. I'm thinking less than $500 .22 or .25 , RELIABLE, with a magazine capacity >14 and shot count of >90. I see this being used off-hand shooting at misc fun targets at 10-25yds so some accuracy could be sacrificed to keep the cost down. Weight may be a challenge as lighter is going to be more fun. The AT44 looks like a start, but not quite there.
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Now quote me, page 1: "A 2 fpe springer?".
Nice but unrealistic idea.
10 years ago we had a very competent innovator Al Nibecker who hand built a handful of amazing rifles (lever pumpers not pump pumpers).
He found amazing efficiency but could not get the backing to produce his intricate Nibecker Quigley rifles - a shame, but that is the way of business.
http://www.americanairgunhunter.com/quigley.html
We do have the FX Independence and Indi for survival.
Kind regards, Harry.
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For survival situations, I'd have to say a break barrel, pump, or pump/PCP is your best bet currently.
Break barrels are simple and effective. The recoil is, unfortunately, their biggest downfall.
Pumpers are nice because you can adjust the power level of each shot and there's minimal recoil. The downside is that it takes a long time between shots and eventually you might have to rebuild them for the seals and such.
Pumper/PCP's are pretty wild because they have all the characteristics of the pumper with the added benefit of multiple shots between pumping. Their downside is again the rebuilding aspect and they're expensive compared to the other two platforms. (at least, all the ones I've seen)
The Air Force Escape is touted as a survival weapon but, really it's just another rendition of their lineup of PCP's. I would not consider a PCP an "Ultimate" survival weapon due to the power source. You need a pump, at the very least, which eventually will need maintenance and is impractical for portability. If PCP's could be filled like blowing up an air mattress then, they'd all be great survival weapons! Imagine that! If that WERE the case, I'd say the FX Indy with swappable arrow barrel, the FX Verminator with swappable arrow barrel, and the FX Impact with swappable arrow barrel (not necessarily in that order). I certainly don't mean to say that FX is the only option out there but, they're the main choices with arrow options. The arrow option is significant to me because it means you don't run out of ammo until you break or lose all your arrows. And, having experience with 2 of those rifles and 1 with the arrows, I know what they are capable of. I think Air Force may have had an arrow kit available some time ago.
Currently, I'd have to agree with Pyramid Air. In their sales catalog they pick the Benjamin 392/397 as the ultimate survival air rifle. Unfortunately, I can't find my catalog to quote them. That pumper is easy to use, light, and simple. Now, were not talking about making it all it can be by cleaning the heck out of the barrel, swapping the trigger, swapping the pump mechanism, putting a scope on it, and so on. We're talking get it, shoot it, survive. ~20yd shots with open sights on squirrels and rabbits etc. to keep you living. Sub $200 purchase, add pellets, go shoot.
I currently own a 392 and I really enjoy it when I shoot it. I remember running it over the chrony at different pump levels and it was very consistent! It hasn't been tuned, or maintained and it is still a joy to operate! In fact, that reminds me... it doesn't hold air for more than 2 days so, I think it's time for a rebuild. But, if SHTF that's going to be the rifle I end up counting on (once the PCP's run out of air supply).
Tom
Break barrels are simple and effective. The recoil is, unfortunately, their biggest downfall.
Pumpers are nice because you can adjust the power level of each shot and there's minimal recoil. The downside is that it takes a long time between shots and eventually you might have to rebuild them for the seals and such.
Pumper/PCP's are pretty wild because they have all the characteristics of the pumper with the added benefit of multiple shots between pumping. Their downside is again the rebuilding aspect and they're expensive compared to the other two platforms. (at least, all the ones I've seen)
The Air Force Escape is touted as a survival weapon but, really it's just another rendition of their lineup of PCP's. I would not consider a PCP an "Ultimate" survival weapon due to the power source. You need a pump, at the very least, which eventually will need maintenance and is impractical for portability. If PCP's could be filled like blowing up an air mattress then, they'd all be great survival weapons! Imagine that!
If that WERE the case, I'd say the FX Indy with swappable arrow barrel, the FX Verminator with swappable arrow barrel, and the FX Impact with swappable arrow barrel (not necessarily in that order). I certainly don't mean to say that FX is the only option out there but, they're the main choices with arrow options. The arrow option is significant to me because it means you don't run out of ammo until you break or lose all your arrows. And, having experience with 2 of those rifles and 1 with the arrows, I know what they are capable of. I think Air Force may have had an arrow kit available some time ago. Currently, I'd have to agree with Pyramid Air. In their sales catalog they pick the Benjamin 392/397 as the ultimate survival air rifle. Unfortunately, I can't find my catalog to quote them. That pumper is easy to use, light, and simple. Now, were not talking about making it all it can be by cleaning the heck out of the barrel, swapping the trigger, swapping the pump mechanism, putting a scope on it, and so on. We're talking get it, shoot it, survive. ~20yd shots with open sights on squirrels and rabbits etc. to keep you living. Sub $200 purchase, add pellets, go shoot.
I currently own a 392 and I really enjoy it when I shoot it. I remember running it over the chrony at different pump levels and it was very consistent! It hasn't been tuned, or maintained and it is still a joy to operate! In fact, that reminds me... it doesn't hold air for more than 2 days so, I think it's time for a rebuild. But, if SHTF that's going to be the rifle I end up counting on (once the PCP's run out of air supply).
Tom
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Those Inovair MAC cartridges are an old idea, but I can't remember where I read about them before. They were popular in the UK before the firearms ban, but lost their popularity afterward. I forget if they were specifically banned, or they just didn't have an advantage in sub-12fpe guns.
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Well, I have one of those https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8RBTBaIeik, they come in co2 or pcp configuration, 30 round "magazine" for round/ball pellets or single shot for others, very fun for plinking.
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