Oh my velocities were for the 457 challenger using 200 grain for the 1145 fps velocities. The thing isn't working right anymore, somethings wrong. Will be in touch with bin tac. It's now making velocities as if it were stock again
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New AEA challenger elite big bore
- Thread starter Trucker3573
- Start date
Probably smack the valve pin too hard. In the last 10 years PCP has had issues breaking the valve because of the material used. Using high pressure and a big heavy hammer and spring put a lot of stress on those parts. That stress is much reduced on a gun that is regulated so your valve is not being tortured with 4,500 PSI. If you look at FX airguns they run the reg under 2500 PSI and Never break the valve.
Well it's time to get your hands dirty and tear it apart. You'll need to get a replacement valve pin :-(
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When I broke a valve pin on my terminator way back, it dumped all its air and wouldn't fire at all. Why is this one still firing and not dumping air if the pin is broken?
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Well if it's under warranty send it back otherwise take it apart. It's probably not the valve pin but more likely an o-ring. Sometimes you can be lucky with an o-ring kit but some of these o-rings are custom. The machining edge were an o-ring makes sometimes is sharp and I like to take a little wire brush on a low speed drill and just buff the edges a little bit. If you run your finger along the edge and it feel sharp then what do you think it'll do to the o-ring?
You need some silicone grease that's thick for assembling things that don't move. The real lightweight stuff is for the high pressure parts that move. If you're in North Florida you can bring it over here and I'll fix it for you.
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The gun won't be under warranty but the new valve might be. Still waiting to hear from bin tac.
I have silicone oil and grease, but I don't think it's an o ring. Didn't notice any leaks. I'm inclined to think it's a bad hammer spring but could be wrong. I live in western Colorado but thanks for the offer
I have silicone oil and grease, but I don't think it's an o ring. Didn't notice any leaks. I'm inclined to think it's a bad hammer spring but could be wrong. I live in western Colorado but thanks for the offer
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Aea Challenger reg pressure set low. Added 12 g of weight to the Hammer and the shim of .175.
You have 100cc plenum so increasing the duration with more weight and the lift with a shim takes advantage of that plenum for slugs.
Before the modification 150 ft lb was all you could get with a Mr hollow point 100 grain slug which is about as big as you can fit in the magazine on the pro model. In the current configuration we're averaging 180 ft lb. 90 grain hollow point slugs are in about 165 ft pounds and the heavier 125 is shooting about 190 ft pounds. When the scope zeroed at 75 yards, 50 yards is about 2 in high so that's easy to change one mil dot and 100 yards is 6 inches low and again you have to aim high three Mill dots.
You have 100cc plenum so increasing the duration with more weight and the lift with a shim takes advantage of that plenum for slugs.
Before the modification 150 ft lb was all you could get with a Mr hollow point 100 grain slug which is about as big as you can fit in the magazine on the pro model. In the current configuration we're averaging 180 ft lb. 90 grain hollow point slugs are in about 165 ft pounds and the heavier 125 is shooting about 190 ft pounds. When the scope zeroed at 75 yards, 50 yards is about 2 in high so that's easy to change one mil dot and 100 yards is 6 inches low and again you have to aim high three Mill dots.
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The hammer spring is really easy to take out!
I must have seen a dozen videos of Ben and Terry changing the springs on YouTube
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It is. I know how, just not sure that's the problem or how I'd be able to tell if it is just weaker now. I don't have another hammer spring to compare to.
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remove spring, measure length, inside and out side diameter. number of coils....
examine for damage, put in a vise and compress @ an inch.... that distance can be
measured on the travel length seen when opening/closing the bolt.
BinTak has springs I'll bet.
If you made a jig, you could measure weight exerted at that travel distance.
century spring has some technical info that might help. I know one thing about springs...
I've learned that the wire diameter is key. Next is weight exerted and from a metallurgy aspect
I believe oil quenched piano wire is the stiffest. My Challenger spring measures
2.3X WIRE DIAMETER .009 INCH
25.5X OUTER DIAMETER 1.004 INCH
70X LENGTH 2.75 INCH
9.6 COIL SPACE ? 3/8 APPROX
Brian
examine for damage, put in a vise and compress @ an inch.... that distance can be
measured on the travel length seen when opening/closing the bolt.
BinTak has springs I'll bet.
If you made a jig, you could measure weight exerted at that travel distance.
century spring has some technical info that might help. I know one thing about springs...
I've learned that the wire diameter is key. Next is weight exerted and from a metallurgy aspect
I believe oil quenched piano wire is the stiffest. My Challenger spring measures
2.3X WIRE DIAMETER .009 INCH
25.5X OUTER DIAMETER 1.004 INCH
70X LENGTH 2.75 INCH
9.6 COIL SPACE ? 3/8 APPROX
Brian
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Thanks I'm too busy for a while to take it apart and tinker but I'll save this post to reference
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On the pro basic the reg is a real pain to adjust. The reg is putting pressure into a 100cc plenum, while elite is 170cc plenum. Without a reg the velocity can vary on each shot [lookup bell curve shot string] because the hammer spring struggles when the pressure is at 4500 psi and then the pressure drops and the valve opens more [lift and duration] and subsequent shots go faster. the the pressure drops to a point that the shots loose velocity. Downrange accuracy suffers. My pro 357 was only doing 140 FPE with mr HP 99 grain slugs and the reg was about 2900 psi. Raising reg to 3100 psi only gave me about 10 to 15 FPE more. I added 2 machine bushings [washers] to add weight to the hammer and .15" preload and the result was 195 FPE ! The magazine holds 8 and is only .455 deep so 100 grain is max but easy to hand load 150 grain. (Elite magazines are much deeper.)
NSA 125 grain netted 215 FPE ! Main tank dropped off reg at about 8 to 10 shots. Next I reduced the reg to about 2500 PSI and changed the
hammer weight and lift to .12" preload. Now getting 16 to 18 shots on reg. NSA 125 nets 195 FPE and 100 grain nets 175 fpe. That was my hunting
and long range setup but around the farm I want quiet and swapped the hammer spring to a lesser stiffness. Dropped FPE to 100 and get over 28 shots. Hitting the target is louder than the gun!
I like the ELITE but would go bullpup in 45 or 50 depending on best ammo availability or molds to cast my own. In 357 I have 2 LYMAN and 2 LEE but
commercial 9mm .356 work great too. Cost and availability for ammo is key because you have nothing without that!
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I know this is an old thread... but I think it's important to share my experience on this topic.
A little backstory...
Before buying the challenger elite 51 I watched as many videos as I could find. The two that stuck out were the video from terry fox, and the video from mr hollow point. After watching those I picked up the same ammo they used in those videos at the same time I purchased the CE 51. That was mr hollow point 255 and 305 grain slugs.
I struggled for days just trying to sight in the rifle. Come to find out the mr hollow point ammo was keyholing, which is a pretty dramatic difference compared to that same ammo in the videos I had seen.
I spent weeks trying to get it to shoot well. Some ammo doesn't keyhole, some does. None of the ammo types I tried, including AEA brand, make a consistent group at 50yds. To be fair, I did have a few decent groups, though they were not consistently repeatable. I tried yet again at the range yesterday and could barely keep on target at 50yds. Meanwhile my heavily customized HP SS Max is banging 3 inch groups at 100yds.
The seller swapped it out with a replacement.
Same exact problems as the original, so the seller put me in touch with AEA.
I did my best to explain what was going on, and what I think is the problem. (I'm 99% sure it's an issue with the barrel. Both barrels had a bore so big that a .510 slug barely touches the rifling.)
AEA has offered no useful suggestions nor have they offered to help in any way. At this point they've been ignoring my emails for weeks.
There's more detail between the lines here, but I think I've summarized the situation pretty well without writing a novel about it.
A little backstory...
Before buying the challenger elite 51 I watched as many videos as I could find. The two that stuck out were the video from terry fox, and the video from mr hollow point. After watching those I picked up the same ammo they used in those videos at the same time I purchased the CE 51. That was mr hollow point 255 and 305 grain slugs.
I struggled for days just trying to sight in the rifle. Come to find out the mr hollow point ammo was keyholing, which is a pretty dramatic difference compared to that same ammo in the videos I had seen.
I spent weeks trying to get it to shoot well. Some ammo doesn't keyhole, some does. None of the ammo types I tried, including AEA brand, make a consistent group at 50yds. To be fair, I did have a few decent groups, though they were not consistently repeatable. I tried yet again at the range yesterday and could barely keep on target at 50yds. Meanwhile my heavily customized HP SS Max is banging 3 inch groups at 100yds.
The seller swapped it out with a replacement.
Same exact problems as the original, so the seller put me in touch with AEA.
I did my best to explain what was going on, and what I think is the problem. (I'm 99% sure it's an issue with the barrel. Both barrels had a bore so big that a .510 slug barely touches the rifling.)
AEA has offered no useful suggestions nor have they offered to help in any way. At this point they've been ignoring my emails for weeks.
There's more detail between the lines here, but I think I've summarized the situation pretty well without writing a novel about it.
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Wouldn't surprise me. I got one of the original so called 457 challengers and they actually had groove diameters closer to .461. Luckily mine is accurate with both 467 and 460 slugs
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