Need help for TM 1000......I have a leaker!!!! Again!!

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Xbowsniper

Xbowsniper

Member
Nov 19, 2017
1,238
139
New York, United States
Nation, 

This is something that stumps me. I've tried to seal my TM 1000, but to no avail. I am extremely familiar with this gun, can take it apart in my sleep, but what is happening is beyond logic.

I resealed the entire gun. When I reseal it, and have it completely broken down, I cock the side lever, and use a zip tie to hold it back. This ensures that when I install the valve body, along with the valve, there is no preload on the valve stem, thus, holding it open, preventing pressurization. I assemble the rest of the gun, and try to fill it. Air comes hissing from the barrel. This tells me the valve is open. I disassemble it again, and the valve remained closed. No air should get by it, but it does. When the valve is tested outside the gun, it seals perfectly, the same as it's in the gun. Driving me nuts. It's a very simple gun to work on, I know it backwards and forwards. I'm waiting for a response from Martin, but I'd figure I'd ask here as well. I cannot ship the gun away, or accept a gun back from service, which is due to where I live, so i need to repair it myself.

Any and all suggestions or tricks will be greatly appreciated.



Tom Holland 

Field Target Tech 
 
If air is coming out the barrel it has to be valve related.

either, bent stem, damage on the sealing face of the valve, damaged valve o ring, a scratched block not allowing the o ring to seal, the valve location grubscrew pushing the valve sideways not allowing the valve to seal or the hammer pushing the valve open because there is too much hammer load, or too little reg pressure 



Bb
 
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I cannot ship the gun away, or accept a gun back from service, which is due to where I live, so i need to repair it myself.

Any and all suggestions or tricks will be greatly appreciated.



Tom Holland 

Field Target Tech
Click to expand...

Well, wherever you live, you need to move! Martin can probably set you straight pretty quick, and I would recommend that you wait for his response rather than relying on the internet experts. 
 
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Guys,

Thanks,

Cameron, I sent him a message earlier today, just figured I'd ask here, lot of knowledge. Thanks, I'll keep my eyes open for his e mail, and response here, thanks again.

Bucketboy, that's exactly what I felt was happening. The valve bodies are pristine, the valve return spring is strong, and perfect as well. All new o rings all the way around, regardless of an old or new valve and body, it still does the same thing. Checked all 3 valve stems on my lathe with an indicator, and all 3 have zero runout. The reg pressure is good, nothing seems amiss.....that's why it's so frustrating, I know this gun well, and can't figure it out. I agree with your take on it, most valves have a metal body, not a plastic one, and the sealing part of the valves on most other guns some kind of plastic. In this case, its the other way around.

Thanks guys for your answers, well appreciated 

Tom Holland 

Field Target Tech 
 
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Try removing the valve location screw or at least slacken it off, it will eliminate one of the likely causes.



just because the acetal valve looks ok, doesn’t mean it is. You can lap the valve stem into the body with some toothpaste , gentle pressure only, keep the paste wet.



For what it’s worth, I have built 2 RAWs for members of the British shooting team and modified about 15 other RAWs and a few hundred Rapids so I do know a little about them.

Check for a scratch inside the block and try and fill quickly.





Bb
 
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Guys,

Thanks,

Cameron, I sent him a message earlier today, just figured I'd ask here, lot of knowledge. Thanks, I'll keep my eyes open for his e mail, and response here, thanks again.

Bucketboy, that's exactly what I felt was happening. The valve bodies are pristine, the valve return spring is strong, and perfect as well. All new o rings all the way around, regardless of an old or new valve and body, it still does the same thing. Checked all 3 valve stems on my lathe with an indicator, and all 3 have zero runout. The reg pressure is good, nothing seems amiss.....that's why it's so frustrating, I know this gun well, and can't figure it out. I agree with your take on it, most valves have a metal body, not a plastic one, and the sealing part of the valves on most other guns some kind of plastic. In this case, its the other way around.

Thanks guys for your answers, well appreciated 

Tom Holland 

Field Target Tech
Click to expand...

These are the replacements valves I make



1561590753_6000555305d13fbe13c8892.02225986_8C05B172-E7FE-413A-B25A-55FF2039632F.jpeg

 
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Bucketboy,

I've tested the valves out of the gun, and they are all good, seal well. I have over 20 different grades of polishing compounds, some specifically for use on plastics. I have grits that approach a sandpaper equivalent of 60,000 grit.

I was toying with making my own, like you, I do have the capability with the tooling that I have. Those are pretty sweet, I do have to say!!

As I said before, I'm going to try again in an hour or so, and run my borescope down the action where the valve body seats, and see if anything is amiss.

Thanks, again,

Tom Holland 

Field Target Tech 
 
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Nation,

Another attempt......failed. Again. Same result.

I took it apart, once again, removed the valve body and valve. Looked down into the space where the valve sits, and it seemed there was some crud in it. So, after cleaning it out with microfiber cloth and alcohol, sent my borescope down it, and it looked brand new. No marks, no gouging or fine scratches.....smooth.

I then removed all o rings from the valve, and as Bucketboy reccomended, I lapped the valve. Used different grits of high end polishing compound, ending with about 1500 grit. Beautiful finish, and when put air pressure behind it, it held without leaking....success, or so I thought.

Again, I cocked the side lever rearward, holding it again with a zip tie. I installed the valve body and valve. There was zero preload, nothing touching the valve stem. Put the spring and brass filter back, and capped it. Put everything else back together, and tried to get air in it. Valve was 100% closed, and air immediately came out of the barrel, and very freely at that.

Given that I KNOW the valve was 100% closed, that tells me that the orings around the valve body, the 2 on the filter side, and the one smaller one on the thinner side towards the striker, are most likely the culprit. I also tried all of this with the filter removed, and got the same result.

Anyway, that's where I'm at, and have figured out from what is occurring, that it has to be those 2 o rings. Don't understand, all new o rings, proper grease....I'm stumped.

Thanks again for listening, guys, and thanks for the advice. I'll have to wait until Martin gets back to me tomorrow.

Tom Holland 

Field Target Tech 
 
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From experience, those filter type valves cause nothing but trouble, they either leak, or cause inconsistencies or both. Best thing you can do it throw it in the bin.

pm me you address an I will post a none filter type valve, a new return spring and a few o rings, try it, see if that helps. Also, the small o ring on the tail of the valve body is not the cause of your problem, it only has air pushing against it during the firing cycle. 



Unless you have a valve tester it is almost impossible to know if the valve seals correctly under pressure.



Bb
 
Upvote 0
From experience, those filter type valves cause nothing but trouble, they either leak, or cause inconsistencies or both. Best thing you can do it throw it in the bin.

pm me you address an I will post a none filter type valve, a new return spring and a few o rings, try it, see if that helps. Also, the small o ring on the tail of the valve body is not the cause of your problem, it only has air pushing against it during the firing cycle. 



Unless you have a valve tester it is almost impossible to know if the valve seals correctly under pressure.



Bb
Click to expand...

I would highly suggest you take him up on this offer!!! I had the same issue with a new to me Rapid 7 MKII and not only did his valve fix the issue it flowed so much better than the stock one that I had to turn my hammer spring preload down alot to get it back into the low 900's. It also eliminates 2 o rings from the valve so has fewer points of failure.

Gipper
 
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Ok, Nation,

Just got off the phone with Martin Rutterford, and I walked him through what is happening when I reseal it, and try to refill it. He seems to think that i am doing things 100 % correct......except for one thing....so I guess it's not 100%!!!

He advises me to put NO silicone grease on ANY o ring on the gun. He said that's a big no-no, and possibly upon trying to fill it, the greasy o rings could be moving or deforming around the valve body preventing a good seal.

So, armed with this knowledge, I am going to take the beast apart later today and degrease EVERYTHING I previously put grease on. Then reassemble. 

I'll let everyone know how that operation goes, and its results.

Thanks to all for your recommendations and guidance.

Tom Holland 

Field Target Tech 
 
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At a note of record ... On my personal TM-1000 had also made myself a custom valve body from 7075 aluminum and a custom poppet a tad smaller in stem ( .125" ) having a PEEK poppet head. Single o-ring in a groove and No bronze filter .... WAY BETTER !!
Click to expand...

^^^Exactly this^^^

when theoben first made the Rapid airgun it didn’t have a filter on the valve, some years later , filter valves were introduced. from day one the filter valves caused problems, particularly in higher power models (you guys get the high power models) this was reported to management from the service team at theoben who carried out the repairs, Theoben finally stopped fitting them to all but a few guns. RAW however, carried on fitting them. 

the problems are.......due to the configuration, the return spring has to be short, this bottoms out during the firing cycle, the spring gets mashed and looses it ability to close the valve correctly, consistency suffers.

The filter is there to catch any small particles getting to the valve but the air has to get through the filter and there are a million different routes it can take so every shot is different, consistency suffers 

The filter breaks up, these small parts that fall off, at best block the passage of air, consistency suffers or worse they get between the poppet and the sealing face and damage the acetal face of the valve body causing it to leak.

The RAW is a great gun fitted with a cr&p valve.



Bb
 
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