N50 Factory and Unlimited divisions

[thomasair]

View attachment National50SmallPractice.1616260612.pdf

We are trying to gauge interest in splitting the Slug/Rimfire class into a Factory and Unlimited division. This means that stock factory rifles shooting factory slugs would compete against factory rimfire rifles and unlimited slug guns would compete with unlimited rimfire.

We have had no data as to how a factory slug gun will perform on our target.

Can we get some slug shooters with factory rifles to shoot some of our practice cards so we can begin to assess if this is going to be a feasible class?

Slug is limited to 22 caliber max as we have to be able to use a 224 plug. We don’t think using the larger 350 plus will be challenging enough for the factory Rimfire guns with decent Ammo.

If you have a factory air rifle that shoots slugs well, please shoot a few of these so we can get an idea of where things stand. 

The practice card is 8 1/2 x 11 and should be printed on actual size. The ten ring should measure .315”.

Post them here with any comments as well.

Thanks,

Mike 

 

[tommyb]

View attachment National50SmallPractice.1616260612.pdf

We are trying to gauge interest in splitting the Slug/Rimfire class into a Factory and Unlimited division. This means that stock factory rifles shooting factory slugs would compete against factory rimfire rifles and unlimited slug guns would compete with unlimited rimfire.

We have had no data as to how a factory slug gun will perform on our target.

Can we get some slug shooters with factory rifles to shoot some of our practice cards so we can begin to assess if this is going to be a feasible class?

Slug is limited to 22 caliber max as we have to be able to use a 224 plug. We don’t think using the larger 350 plus will be challenging enough for the factory Rimfire guns with decent Ammo.

If you have a factory air rifle that shoots slugs well, please shoot a few of these so we can get an idea of where things stand. 

The practice card is 8 1/2 x 11 and should be printed on actual size. The ten ring should measure .315”.

Post them here with any comments as well.

Thanks,

Mike 

Hey Mike

I’m confused with the terminology. I have several Safari RW .22 NAT 50 cards with 25g K0 slugs. Already posted these cards on another post. 

Is this what you want? I can repost here. 

Tom 

 

[thomasair]

Hi Tommy, I had forgot you shot slugs on a couple cards. Yes, you can post them here. We are just trying to see if factory slug guns can be competitive with factory rimfire.


Mike 

 

[tommyb]

Here are a few NAT 50 cards I previously posted on another NAT50 post ( Fuss’ post ). These were from the official sized 11 X 17” cards Joe sent to me. 

I did use the .224” scoring plug that came with the targets.  “ IF....” I scored correctly, there is a 235, 238 and 240 in this set. I used my Daystate Safari .22 HP Red Wolf Safari with JSB 25g Knock Out slugs. I am reasonably confident that in more experienced hands, the gun is capable of 240+ scoring. After seeing the recently posted .22 LR Rimfire results from Dana and Lou, I’m not sure if those type of very high scores are possible with the RW from me anyway. A more experienced EBR competition shooter would do better. Don't get me wrong, I was pleased with these results but just indicating that experience in wind reading would have helped me improve as we all know.

I am trying to find a calm day to try this again with less wind. There was 4-6 mph swirling wind and I had two flags out when I shot that particular day. For my air rifle, the Knock Out slugs zero’d at 50 yards, are the most accurate for 50 yard NAT 50 BR targets. 

Next week, I am going to try this with my Anschutz 1907 match rifle. We'll see how that compares.

See below:

 

[thomasair]

Hi Tommy, 

Thanks for posting these. By eye, I believe that your scoring could use some work. It’s my opinion that you have shorted yourself quite a few points. I’m not there with a plug in my hand, so I can’t say for sure, but I’m pretty sure.


If you are over 40, and almost everyone in BR is, you NEED magnification to be able to score correctly. 8x is about right. Slide magnifiers work great. Insert the plug straight up and down...put the magnifier over the top, and sight directly down the edge of the plug. If you see any white you didn’t catch the ring, if you see some black when judging a pellet X, you missed it. There is no reason not to be able to make a definitive call when using magnification. If you still can’t obviously decide, set the card over the top of a lamp shade and look again with the bright light below the card. If you don’t have a magnifier...get one. In the meantime you can take close up pic down the edge of the plug with your phone and then blow the pic up and look.

You only need to touch the ring to receive the point value of that ring. Touching means you can’t see any white between the ring and the edge of the plug. You don’t have to take a bite out of the ring with the plug to get it.

I see beginners short themselves points all the time because they are afraid that experienced guys will jump on them for potentially giving themselves points they didn’t earn. For BR to be meaningful, scoring must be absolute. Instead of shorting yourself...you just need to be confident of your call and take what you earned.

If you have time....give these cards another look with magnification and bright light. 

Dana and Lou were shooting unlimited class guns. These are not to be confused with factory RF guns. They are all hand fitted and machined by very competent smiths. There are no air rifles that can equal them on the planet. I’m trying hard, but not there. They shot for contrast and comparison. Dana didn’t have very good ammo, and Lou made a couple wind mistakes. They both should have shot 750s pretty easily. We already know that factory RF or factory air will not give them a run. The question is....can factory air give factory rimfire a run?

Mike 

 

[thomasair]

Here is the slide magnifier that I use. It’s a peak 8x.

Mike 

 

[tommyb]

Mike

Thanks for the help. Just ordered the Peak 8X for $49. On its way.

Appreciate the clarification on those .22 unlimited class guns. Dana explained they were custom, but I had no idea how good they were. Now I don’t feel so bad. 

re. Scoring - I really tried carefully to use the .224” scoring plug as you described, but I was wondering if you can identify any specific bulls where I goofed. I.e., which card and which target bull number?


I realize you don’t have the physical targets, but if you have some obvious examples where I shorted myself, it will help me. As an example, I know that with slugs you just need to touch the 10 ring dot for it to count as an X. Pellets need to completely cover the X for it to count. I’m good there on X scoring. 

I also know if you see any white on a close call, you take the lower ring value. I thought I checked these pretty closely with my scoring plug, but I will re-score again when I get the magnifier. 

You can PM me if you would like. 

Tom

 

[thomasair]

14 on first target...4 on 3rd

 

[Centercut]

Good shooting Tommy. I was going to give this a shot yesterday. Opened the first tin of a new sleeve of the .217 JSB KOs. Only brought two tins with me. Up until now the .22 RW HP loved them. This new batch are absolutely horrible with fliers one out of every 3 or 4. Can’t shoot cards like that... ;(

 

[thomasair]

Have never found any of the sizes of pellets or slugs marked on the tin to be reliable. JSB slugs are made with a split die just like their pellets, so all the same inconsistencies apply.

Most of my KO .217s were .2164 to .2165....and most of my .216s were .2163. The .216s would have occasional real .2160s.
One particular sleeve of .217s measured nearly .2200 90 degrees to the parting line. Fun stuff. Nielsen’s never shot BR cards well at any size for me, but they are round and consistent sized. Was told KOs would eventually be offered in .218...but I lost interest in those and have not kept up on that. If they are out there, you could size them down in a sizing die....at least they would all be consistent then.

 

[Centercut]

Yeah, now I have to find a slug that shoots out of my .22 Red Wolf HP. I think maybe the H&N shot well when I tried them, just didn't pay much attention since the KOs were shooting so well. I shot the first row 10, 10 , 10 then one down and to the right an entire block! Thought maybe just a damaged slug. Then a few more 10, 9, 10, 10 and one a full block to the right. It just kept going like that until I realized I had crap slugs... Was also going to shoot Extreme FT with that gun Saturday, not now! ;(

 

[tommyb]

Good shooting Tommy. I was going to give this a shot yesterday. Opened the first tin of a new sleeve of the .217 JSB KOs. Only brought two tins with me. Up until now the .22 RW HP loved them. This new batch are absolutely horrible with fliers one out of every 3 or 4. Can’t shoot cards like that... ;(

Thanks Mike. 

Bummer on the new tin of KO's. I know Bleu likes those KO's, so hopefully the new KO ammo will arrive. I was totally and pleasantly surprised how my Safari on medium power likes the KO's. I feel like I am shooting an LR. Given the MRDs are shooting 970 FPS on medium, I am only guessing the KO's are shooting around 920-930 FPS. I can chrono to validate, but I pretty much only shoot the KOs now at 50 because of accuracy and better with wind than MRDs at same distance. 

 

[Centercut]

True... thanks, and your targets look very good. I'm probably shifting over to MRDs for the rest of the year until after EBR since the requirement is still pellets and I haven't shot pellets much during COVID-19. Need to get used to wind drift again. Will shoot .22 Bleu at the 100 yard events, the.25 Delta Wolf at other events like Speed and PRS, and the .25 Impact at Slug events.

 

[tommyb]

Desperate to get to the range today, even though it was calling for 5-10 MPH on Weather Channel. Shot the Anschutz 1907 .22 LR to see how she would compare against my Red Wolf Safari .22 HP. I picked the wrong day to do this, but I wanted to see how I could do reading the wind under these conditions. 

Here are some pics with my setup: Have a real solid mechanical rest as there is no bi-pod for this match rifle. I was told by ANA Custom Shop you need a mechanical rest. Feel like I am cheating with this contraption, but it is fun to play with here.

 

If you zoom in, I did start reading the wind correctly on some of my bulls as evidenced by hitting the 10 ring. You will also see a lot of missed wind calls, as I have to single load this rifle ( no magazine ). In any case, the RW Safari whipped the Anschutz in my first shooting competition with myself. 

Target #2 needs an explanation - I needed more MOA for my 50 yard zero, so I adjusted by No Limit rings and tried to find zero on my splatterburst targets below these. You will see two shots that came from that exercise, so I 'X'd" them out. The scoring sucked anyway even with using my .224" scoring plug. Lol!

Trying to shoot both rifles with these targets under various conditions, but next time I will patiently wait for a calmer wind day before shooting the 1907.

These two were from about a month ago, and before I had the scoring plugs or NAT 50 targets. Anschutz 1907 and I think the wind was much calmer that day. 

 

[Joef]

That is not bad Tommy. A couple things to try, make sure both front rest and rear bag are aligned, being offset a little will not help. Moving rear bag placement, also front stop on rest, little changes can make a difference. There are torque settings you can try also. 

The ribbons will limit your success in reading the wind, they help don't get me wrong but not the full effects.

Keep up the good work and Thank you for sharing.



Joe

 

[tommyb]

That is not bad Tommy. A couple things to try, make sure both front rest and rear bag are aligned, being offset a little will not help. Moving rear bag placement, also front stop on rest, little changes can make a difference. There are torque settings you can try also. 

The ribbons will limit your success in reading the wind, they help don't get me wrong but not the full effects.

Keep up the good work and Thank you for sharing.



Joe

Thanks Joe.

I will focus on front and rear rest alignment. Q. Is there something you saw in my setup that could be improved? If you can describe the alignment you are referring to, that would help. We could also talk directly via PM or phone if it makes it easier. 

At some point, I will buy better wind flags. I will look, but if you know of ‘any’ good instructional Youtube flag reading videos, send me a link. Simpler is better for me. Too much flag reading information to process while I am shooting doesn’t work for me. 

Tom

 

[Joef]

Hi Tommy,

Phone would be nice, 805-444-8521 



Joe