My PSA(Public Service Announcement)

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"NeilClague"John I just have a problem with posting anything, until you have given the person the chance to correct it. In the case of small makers like myself posts can be very damaging, ok so something does not work the way you like it, give me or any maker the chance to put it right. Posting that it has been put right after you have already made a post about something does not work, the damage has already been done! One person posting something bad about a product can negate 50 or more positive feedback's about them. So personally I just do NOT see any reason to post anything until you have addressed the problem and either have a good working unit in your hands or something not worth a damn, then write about it afterwards, instead of the negative for the seller it would hopefully then be a positive because he had acted promptly and taken care of the issue and replaced the item for you, in which case no damage has been done to his name, or product from your initial post. You mention courtesy, well this is a matter of courtesy, allow them to address the problem, BEFORE you write about it and do possible damage to someones reputation, Neil.
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I disagree Neil. Manufacturers/sellers, such as yourself, are given time to rectify the issue with the product. The consumer very rarely would post a negative review for a product unless they had a specific reason to. The consumer gives the sellers the time to make it right but it still does not get fixed or PERHAPS the seller instead vents their frustration on to the customer. This would definitely warrant a reason for a customer to post a bad review on their product. Maybe not on the product themselves but the customer service which is a very integral part of buying a product! Most of the bad reviews for a product here are not reviews written from the frustrations of their hearts, but instead legitimate or honest opinions on the product. They post facts on what shape they got their products in and how the products perform. Sure take down the hurtful comments without any facts or anything to justify their actions, but there have been post that have been taken down that had no bias. I am fairly new with airguns so I can't comment on the price to quality ratio over time for airguns, but I can comment on the censorship and customer service of some manufacturer/seller.




 
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Thanks to the internet we now live in a world in which every manufacturer and seller of product has access to customers. Obviously many of these vendors do business in areas of the world with drastically lower labor costs which means they can offer much lower costs to the customer. Even within the borders of the US there are multiple vendors offering the same product (though this competitiveness is somewhat reduced when manufacturers like FX and Daystate choose to limit access to their product by dealing with only one importer). The end result to this universal access is that wise retailers realize that the only thing they are selling that is uniquely their own is the service they provide.

Forums are no different. They all provide a venue which allows we customers to share our experiences with vendors for better or for worse. Those forums that choose to restrict or censor this raison d'etre for forums to exist, like those vendors who perceive that pushing product with little or no regard for customer service, will find themselves in the long run at a competitive disadvantage and will suffer accordingly.
 
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Aaron

I admire you for composing an honest topic that has been eating away at the industry we love. Unfortunately a few people took advantage of this and replied to your heartfelt topic with accusations and hearsay. 

We will not tolerate people copying and posting degrading replies from the TAG forum. They have 24 page sticky thread dedicated to talking bad about Airgun Nation. We do not condone that kind of discussion, and we clearly do not share the same idea of what an Airgun Forum should be.

Here are a few simple rules that we expect our members to follow:
  1. Before you post or reply, ask yourself, “Is my post going to be: constructive, insightful, or helpful in advancing the airgun community?”
  2. Speak to everyone as you would like to be spoken to. Abusive language and/or Trolling is not allowed.
  3. This is a forum for airgun talk, not politics. There will be no negative discussions about other forums. They can do things their way, and we will do things our way.
  4. Clandestine advertising is prohibited. Promotional posts made by non-sponsored vendors or their affiliates are not allowed; this includes any reviews or links. Furthermore; discussion of banned members, their products, or information leading our members to their websites will be discouraged. 
    [/LIST=1]
    Airgun Nation is dedicated to taking our sport to the next level. We will encourage the discussion of ALL airguns & products, and remove anyone or any content in opposition to our rules.
 
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"Michael"Aaron

I admire you for composing an honest topic that has been eating away at the industry we love. Unfortunately a few people took advantage of this and replied to your heartfelt topic with accusations and hearsay. 

We will not tolerate people copying and posting degrading replies from the TAG forum. They have 24 page sticky thread dedicated to talking bad about Airgun Nation. We do not condone that kind of discussion, and we clearly do not share the same idea of what an Airgun Forum should be.

Here are a few simple rules that we expect our members to follow:
  1. Before you post or reply, ask yourself, “Is my post going to be: constructive, insightful, or helpful in advancing the airgun community?”
  2. Speak to everyone as you would like to be spoken to. Abusive language and/or Trolling is not allowed.
  3. This is a forum for airgun talk, not politics. There will be no negative discussions about other forums. They can do things their way, and we will do things our way.
  4. Clandestine advertising is prohibited. Promotional posts made by non-sponsored vendors or their affiliates are not allowed; this includes any reviews or links. Furthermore; discussion of banned members, their products, or information leading our members to their websites will be discouraged. 
    [/LIST=1]
    Airgun Nation is dedicated to taking our sport to the next level. We will encourage the discussion of ALL airguns & products, and remove anyone or any content in opposition to our rules.
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  1. Many members here are also members on other airgun forums. I'm not a member at TAG but why worry about what TAG members say about this or other forums on TAG? Some of these edits, post deletions and warnings seem to go overboard. There will always be brand loyalties, disagreements and criticizing; that's what comes from being an adult and thinking on your own.
 
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"blackdiesel"
"Michael"Aaron

I admire you for composing an honest topic that has been eating away at the industry we love. Unfortunately a few people took advantage of this and replied to your heartfelt topic with accusations and hearsay. 

We will not tolerate people copying and posting degrading replies from the TAG forum. They have 24 page sticky thread dedicated to talking bad about Airgun Nation. We do not condone that kind of discussion, and we clearly do not share the same idea of what an Airgun Forum should be.

Here are a few simple rules that we expect our members to follow:
  1. Before you post or reply, ask yourself, “Is my post going to be: constructive, insightful, or helpful in advancing the airgun community?”
  2. Speak to everyone as you would like to be spoken to. Abusive language and/or Trolling is not allowed.
  3. This is a forum for airgun talk, not politics. There will be no negative discussions about other forums. They can do things their way, and we will do things our way.
  4. Clandestine advertising is prohibited. Promotional posts made by non-sponsored vendors or their affiliates are not allowed; this includes any reviews or links. Furthermore; discussion of banned members, their products, or information leading our members to their websites will be discouraged. 
    [/LIST=1]
    Airgun Nation is dedicated to taking our sport to the next level. We will encourage the discussion of ALL airguns & products, and remove anyone or any content in opposition to our rules.
Click to expand...

  1. Many members here are also members on other airgun forums. I'm not a member at TAG but why worry about what TAG members say about this or other forums on TAG? Some of these edits, post deletions and warnings seem to go overboard. There will always be brand loyalties, disagreements and criticizing; that's what comes from being an adult and thinking on your own.
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  1. I wonder that myself. The best leaders do not need to stifle criticism or different points of view. 

    Anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that what you read on the internet is not always true. IMHO leaving it up and letting folks decide for themselves is better that taking things down and leaving folks to wonder what is missing and why.
 
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Fuko of course you disagree with what I posted because you are one of those people who wants to vent before giving the maker the chance to rectify something, you are also someone who I would avoid doing business with in the future. I thought you had learned from that event and decided to think about things before posting in the future, I was obviously wrong. I guess some people do not learn from experiences, good luck to you, I do not wish to comment any further on this subject, I am done with it, a shame you are not.
To the poster above who thinks post should be left alone, if the owners take your approach and give no protection to their sponsors there will be no forum, sponsors will just not bother sponsoring and you will lose your forums. Nobody is suggesting that every post gets deleted, but when someone clearly vents without any foundation or truth, other than their opinion that should be censored. You have to remember, this forum is also a business, members get to enjoy it for free, while it is subsidized by sponsors, start to badmouth sponsors with nothing to back up the posts and the forum will very quickly start to lose its sponsors. Neil.
 
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"FukoChan"Im confused. This thread was deleted last time i checked and also with one of the users "Cricket," banned. What changed? Why did admins bring it back? No comment to Neil. I have my own story, while he has his.

Edit: Actually Neil, I never once mentioned our past dealings. Please read my post carefully.
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FukoChan

We rarely delete threads completely. I hid the topic while sorting thru the mess. The degrading material against myself, Ted, and AGN that was copied from TAG and posted here has been hidden and saved for future reference.
 
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I hear what your saying Neil, but let me tell you why I disagree.

A real world example just happened at YF. Someone posted about getting a part other than what was ordered. Frankly, my opinion was the guy got stiffed, but it would not have put my panties in a bunch. Anyway the owner who is a sponsor got on and explained. I know I can trust that shop now. Not long before that someone posted on several forums about a malfunctioning part. That post is not here anymore. Had that owner who was invited by a member to reply done so I might have had a more favorable opinion of them than before like I do of the merchant on YF. Now that that post is gone My thoughts are what are they trying to hide? I do like this forum, but when things are sanatized for businesses protection how do I know what is missing?

If something is clearly without foundation or truth, it will likely be clear to all. My wish is that we give people credit. Let them read, learn, and think for themselves.

Also, with any hobby... Folks often say it is their passion. I believe the OP said that. People get passionate; strong opinions on all sides. I believe in letting that happen. I'd love it if the sponsors had enough trust in us and their products and services to not need to be protected. Fanboys and badgers are fairly easily spotted. 



 
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Kzoo the fact is the guy got the problem taken care of, so rather than put doubts in peoples minds about the honesty of a vendor, if he had dealt with the company alone none of those doubts would have been put out there. Plain and simple, try and resolve it with the vendor, if you are not happy with the resolution then post about it in the correct place, the dealer feedback forum, Airing grievances on the forums is not the correct place to air them, the forums are for general air gun chat, not to post about whether you got screwed by a dealer or not. Otherwise there would be a forum for Anyone who feels they got screwed by a dealer! I see no point in going on any further with this topic, there is a right way and wrong way to vent feelings about transactions with dealers, and that is on the dealer feedback forum, You say to let people read and make opinions themselves, but in the meanwhile their opinions can effect the livelihood of the person being written about, and in many cases without foundation. . Neil.

Fuko it has to do with attitude, I thought after the last event that you had agreed you would think twice before making a hasty post again, that was why I responded to your post the way I did, you sound as eager to post and vent as you did back then. Gain some experience with air guns before you start to challenge makers, so you can talk to them on their level and understand everything they are saying to you. Unless you do that any posts you make will make you look foolish and do nothing to enamor you to the vendor. 
 
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I did not read the link or post, and now that it's gone I can't. I did take a quick look and from what I saw my opinion is that if the poster was correct you would either you're a moron (which I'm sure you are not) or you will just incorporate his R&D into your products.

Honestly I feel I can take your word for it... Largely because I contacted you in the spring about making one for my Cricket. In a nutshell you said you would do it but Crickets are well suppressed, so don't expect much. I replied that that I'll give you a holler if I find some $ burning a hole in my pocket. Just an example of research and a decision.

My point remains that I trust folks to weigh the info. A well known web marketing tactic is to flood the net with rave reviews. Eliminating negative comments is nearly the same thing.

I guess my points are; I respect companies that face criticism, if it is deserved they should adjust, if it is not deserved I appreciate hearing their rebuttal. If there us no criticism, where is the pressure to grow??? 

Maybe be I should have not addressed you directly, because my ramblings are about the whole thing and not you or your business, but I thought you might be addressing me.

I like to see passion enough that I'm tolerant of the dust ups. I believe in the idea of free access to info and letting the consumer of the info make the call. Worst case senerio is the info is so bad that the experience is so bad that folks give up on the hobby. I doubt this happens enough to be statistically significant. Best case is we get info from vendors and fans that challenge misinformation AND manufacturers and vendors address legimate gripes.


MOD EDIT: Lets get back on topic. Any more banter  specifically about a past event between "Fukochan" and "NeilClague" will be removed. 



 
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"NeilClague"Kzoo I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, I do not incorporate other peoples R&D in my product. . Maybe you should PM me because this is not the place to discuss this and like I said I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, Neil.
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I'll have to agree with what Neil is saying. Kzoo is hard to understand but he has some good points on the industry. 
 
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The reason that i deleted my original post was because it quickly got way off track and had nothing to do with what Neil was talking about that turned into a pissing match. The intent was to point out that there are people on the forums that try to hide as normal members yet are representatives of certain products, manufacturers, or dealers. I was pointing this out because of the unfortunate nature of this ends up taking advantage of people who are non the wiser. The industry uses what I feel are shady tactics and people should be aware of that and be able to utilize the forums for factual information and not paid advertising.

Though my intentions were good, this just reveals the inability for such matters to be discussed, because it always turn into some sort of agenda completely off topic which happened to this thread.

Bottom line, the wolves in sheeps clothes should be pointed out and need to disappear from the forums. We should be utilizing these forums for learning and making advancements in airgunning. Not hidden agendas and bullpoop!! I was also trying to point out that we should all do our best to provide first hand experience and facts when members ask for opinions or help. Nothing trumps facts. NOTHING!!
 
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