MOA or better with pellets... REALLY?

[Centercut]

I seem to be seeing this very often lately at 100 yards, more so than the past couple of years. So I'd like to know what exactly that means to you. Does it mean you shot a magic group at 100 yards and it was 1 MOA? Pellets or Slugs? How many shots? Was it just one group or if you shot a series of 5+ shot groups, say 5 or 6 groups of 5, would it average "MOA or better"? Were they shot in real world or perfect conditions...?

I only bring it up since it seems every AGN member that posts lately seems to add the "MOA or better" phrase to their post.... The interesting part is that in real world conditions shooting 25 record shots at 25 individual bulls inside MOA is very extremely rare.  In fact, it hasn't been done yet in competition with pellets at 100 yards in ANY of the major 100 yard tournaments over the past five years. I'm not talking about shooting at dawn or dusk with almost zero or light wind, and shooting mulligans. But real world - you pull the trigger - and it counts type shooting. You don't get to choose your favorite wind condition, you shoot when its your turn at the bench. Rant over... 

 

[Ripper]

That’s why I take these photos that people post showing their groups at 100 yards with a grain of salt. I’m not saying they are liars or it didn’t happen. I’m just saying I seriously doubt they could repeatedly do that.And some people like to exaggerate. The same ones that say that they stack pellets on top of another at long distances. Well that description can mean different things for different people.And I also see people showing these tight groups and don’t even tell what distance it was.Even if there was no wind and the person could go out there and do that anytime they wanted,I say congratulations and my hats off to you.

 

[8thman]

I always have preferred to see full magazine groups, seems to tell me what the real story wind hold flyers etc. with the impact. Other guns I have enjoyed seeing one two and three ten round groups. I had owned a wildcat mk1 25cal shooting @835fps 34gr jsb, and I would shoot 40 round groups @125yrds which would be from a full fill to falling off the regulator. The groups showed the story flyers wind and my own errors and overall averaged 1.75-2.25 but very few shots increased the overall group but it honestly included the shots that I did want to count. So long story short the 3-5 shots groups don’t impress me as much but that’s just me. I try to judge myself only and I found more about my gun and myself shooting multiple shots at each target. Good luck shooting 

 

[Odoyle]

One gun that can do it no praying for barrel lottery or need to buy a dozen (or more) of them and pray one will do it is go buy a 25 Sumatra 2500 long gun and shoot 30.86gr H&N Baracudas and 35.8gr Eun Jin Seneca Domes some shoot Benjamin Domes 27.8gr as well.

Thus guy didn't even weigh nor sort his pellets and just shot them straight from their tins just imagine if he weighed and sorted all his pellets how much smaller his groups would be. The old Shin Sung Career II 707 long guns are capable of doing it too once the feed shuttle is set properly and so long as a regulator isn't installed inside the gun. 

https://youtu.be/76-KJojud4M

 

[Ghostranger169]

Hey, my gun is MOA at 100 yards with pellets :

Oh wait :

 

[thomasair]

Personally....I get a kick out of the idea that a perceived no wind condition is going to produce the best scores. The perceived no wind condition is one of the most difficult to shoot for score. I’ll take 3-5 mph any day over a supposedly still condition at any distance. Any seasoned BR shooter is going to avoid the calm....unless they like big surprises.

A rifle that can shoot 1 moa consistently is a whole different matter than a guy shooting consistent 1 moa with the same rifle.


Mike 

 

[Motorhead]

It is the 100 yards and actually closer to 50 yards where a PELLET shot from a capable gun and shooter can shoot SUB MOA groups somewhat frequently in ideal conditions.

It has always been my feeling that 100 yards is WAY THE HELL OUT THERE for a pellet in any caliber !! Folks do it all the time and i get that .. doing so with great control and accuracy not so much

 

[BeeGee11]

What does "MOA or better" mean? Grouped less than a square inch?

 

[JohnnyPDX]

MOA = Minute Of Angle



Source: https://www.targettamers.com/guides/moa-explained/

 

[Odoyle]

https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/converting-moa-to-inches.24745/

There are guns actually capable of doing it straight out of their box under good weather conditions like NO WIND. OR!!! if you lucky to get that one with an exceptional NON RUN OF THE MILL AVERAGE barrel. A REAL FREAK OF NATURE BARREL.

I'd be in heaven if I imported Russian made guns to sell in the USA where they ship the barrels separately that way I can keep all the half inch grouping barrels (Half MOA). Probably one in 100 or one in 200 if I had to guess. You can't imagine how many Edguns I went through to get my half inch at 100 JSB 18.1gr keeper (shooting the BEST LOTS most accurate batches of course due diligence my friends due diligence plus old best lots of them gray tins only accuracy nuts will know what I'm talking about where you don't even need to weigh or sort them they shoot perfect straight out a their tins automatic!) Also a half inch at 100 Unregulated 22 Daystate Regal XL sub 1/4 at 50 all day long (Of course with aforementioned best lot pellets) It will even do it most if the time with current lots of typical SO-SO JSBs batches since this barrel seems to be one of the Daystate Lothar Walther lottery winners night and day superior than their norm even more accurate than my Redwolfs and Pulsars. I am NOT gonna put a regulator in this one!

I recently received a 22 REGULATED Daystate Regal XL recently and it's average under half inch at 40 my current max here at the moment and won't do 1/4 at 50 judging by its 40 yard groups even with the good lot batch of JSBs.

I'm tempted to swap uppers to put the 1/4 inch shooting upper onto the regulated lower but don't wanna end up posting the typical PLEASE HELP ME I TINKERED WITH A PERFECT SHOOTING GUN AND CANT GET MY ACCURACY BACK.

 

[BeeGee11]

MOA = Minute Of Angle



Source: https://www.targettamers.com/guides/moa-explained/

Ok ok, so when people say they shot MOA or better, that means a 1" square group at 100 yards, 1/2" sq group at 50 yards, etc?

 

[bertman77mk2]

Just like firearms, I am impressed with the targets of record—They are official. I love accurate weapons as they are better than me; one cannot blame the equipment for a miss! When one competes he has an actual record of accuracy and not a claim. I have messed with M16, AR15,M4’s since the late 60’s and know what the pros shoot equipment wise and record wise. When I hear of sub-moa or less or it is better than the national record It certainly raises some doubts.

 

[AirNGasman]

I've always argued against presenting best-case single groups, in favor of AVERAGE group sizes of several consecutive groups. In most cases that means five consecutive five-shot groups, FLIERS INCLUDED! That wiggle-room-immune standard immediately puts all the "she's a one-hole shooter" and "sub-MOA shooter" BS in it's rightful place; a big, stinkin' pile! 

Just so no-one misunderstands how I really feel about this subject, my last book (now available on Amazon by searching for the title) includes a whole, LONG chapter titled, "This Little Baby's A REEEAL Tack Driver!". To quote the opening sentence of that chapter- "When you hear such BS from the flappin’ jaws of some ‘salesman’ using such a sales approach, you should- 1) always consider the source, 2) usually be skeptical, 3) often discount what you’re hearing, 4) sometimes disbelieve the statement entirely, and 5) occasionally… just walk away!"

Real one MOA pellet guns may actually be as common as real unicorns!

 

[thomasair]

There are plenty of examples of 1 Moa pellet guns out there as evidenced by actual 25 shot cards in 25m and 50y BR....just none at 100y.

Mike 

 

[Long_Gun_Dallas]

If I even mention group size, it's because the gun will do it. That's all there is to it. Rested on sandbag/s. Whether I or conditions allow that is another question.

I have not even attempted to get any of my guns to group pellets at 100. But I have shot game as far as 80 yards using pellets. That's stretching it for a .22 caliber pellet.

So, typically I'll say how tightly it groups at 25 or 50 yards. If I say it will shoot under 1/2 moa. I mean at 100 yards. 5 shots



@AirNGasman Never trust a salesman, lol.

 

[triggertreat]

I agree with the OP. You've got to post multiple 5-shot groups to note if the groups hold consistently. Many, when asked, will only state the distances, which many times are real short distances displaying their best groups ever, probably.

Here's some groups I ran one day. They are only at 52 yards, but they let me know I am on the right track. I have several other sheets of groups giving me similar results to these which are all 5-shot groups..

 

[riazp]

I shoot under perfect conditions at 100Y most of the time, I can honestly say that MOA groups are hard to achieve even under perfect conditions.

All my groups are 9 shots and from a full tank I get about 130 shots (.22 Impact) my best effort is 4 consecutive MOA groups of 9. An average day produces one or two MOA groups, I am trying for MOA with every shot but so much has to come together to make it happen that it may as well be luck, but I continue to try

 

[tonykharper]

Guys, group shooting from a benchrest has been dying a slow death for years. There are many reasons. Moving backers, arguments over 4 vs 5 shot groups etc.etc.

The first shot in a group is a freebee. 

Your time will be better spent shooting targets for score.

Getting them to nest together is one thing, but getting them to go where you want them is another. 

Just saying!

TKH 

 

[steve123]

I'm with you on that Centercut.

I like the contest on Snipershide forums in the rimfire forum called the 6x5. It's six 5 shots groups done at 50Y and 100Y, there have been many participants over the years. A person's name, the picture of their groups on one 6x5 target, are required to be shown with the size and measurement of all groups including the aggregate. There are quite a few sub moa guns and good shooters that achieved sub moa at 50Y, and far less at 100Y but not uncommon, this is with expensive guns like Vudoo as well as using expensive 22lr ammo. The big flyers that are "often" present with PCP's using pellets at 100Y are rare with these better 22rf ammo's. That should say something about pellets at 100Y by comparing the lower velocity and over 1/3 less BC.

1 moa pcp rifle at 100Y???!!! I've been around some of the best shooters in the USA and some of the best rifles, if they can't do it on a regular basis then nobody can. IMHO It's not just the rifle, it's not just the shooter, it's the inability of the ammo with extremely low BC affected by wind in the vertical, and horizontal plain, and IMO, possibly bad pellets. 

It amazes me how well a pellet gun can shoot at 75Y compared to 100Y, there's something going on here. 

Like Mike N states, at 25Y there are plenty of sub MOA pellet guns, and it just gets worse unproportionally compared to bullets the farther away from the barrel the pellets get. 

Then if one compares the aggregate of a 6mmPPC during the whole BR match for top shooters being in the .1's at 100Y, OR aggs at sub 3" at 600Y with 6mmBRA, etc, via 105's, then that shows us how dismal the whole pellets at 100Y thing really is. 

 

[stoti]

Mike, it use to bother me when I saw stuff like, “all my guns shoot MOA”, “my guns shoot 1/2 MOA at 100” or “sub MOA easy” and stuff like that. I could really care less about what people say their guns can do because, like you said, it’s so relative and most of us that shoot a lot know it’s not that easy. I’ve told you before, the reason is does bother me is because new shooters buy an air gun and then can’t figure out why it doesn’t shoot as well as everybody says they do. I’ve seen it, heard about it and been asked about it so many times. It’s so misleading to new shooters. 

I just read the other day, shooting a 5 shot group at 100 yards is analogous to shooting PAR on a round of golf. Whether that’s true or not??? Sounds good though and puts it in a little better perspective. 

Stoti