Minimum amount of energy required

Lots of replies here that have it covered, but one thing's for certain: it takes a lot less energy than most people would think. Lots of rabbits, groundhogs, and coons have been taken by 14 fpe .177 springers. One of my favorite pest airguns was a .177 shorty QB79 HPA conversion that shot 6 fpe at the muzzle. Hundreds of pest birds fell to that gun. Inside of 30 yards, there isn't anything coon size down that I wouldn't feel ethical taking with a mid-power .177
 
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Lots of replies here that have it covered, but one thing's for certain: it takes a lot less energy than most people would think. Lots of rabbits, groundhogs, and coons have been taken by 14 fpe .177 springers. One of my favorite pest airguns was a .177 shorty QB79 HPA conversion that shot 6 fpe at the muzzle. Hundreds of pest birds fell to that gun. Inside of 30 yards, there isn't anything coon size down that I wouldn't feel ethical taking with a mid-power .177
Agree that mid power .177 is plenty for most small game hunting. IMHO accuracy is key, while power is typically over-valued for hunting. I am comfortable hunting with a .177 10fpe springer out to 35 yards for squirrel, rabbits and quail.
R
 
Agree that mid power .177 is plenty for most small game hunting. IMHO accuracy is key, while power is typically over-valued for hunting. I am comfortable hunting with a .177 10fpe springer out to 35 yards for squirrel, rabbits and quail.
R

Accuracy is indeed key. Hunting with springers is a beautiful thing, shame most manufacturers are focused on way over-springing them.
 
I respect everyone's opinion here. Mine differs quite a bit from most folks. I don't actually agree that knock down power is a thing. I've had hundreds of kills if you count everything I've shot from 8 years old with a crosman 760 to now. I've shot animals with 177 pellets to 308 powder burners. From what I can tell how deep it goes is everything for the exception of any bullet traveling past 2200 fps. For some reason damage seems to increase insanely after that velocity regardless of caliber or weather or not the bullet stops inside the animal. I know this isn't popular but it is my experience. An aside for large animals I prefer pass through for the blood trail and sucking chest wound effect. I have shot 3 deer with a 308 that stopped inside the deer and they ran farther than a clean pass through with my 243. Similar results with pellet guns. I have never had a squirrel for example get anchored by a 22cal that missed vitals or a 25 for that matter that a 177 hitting vitals wouldn't kill faster. I could be wrong but at this point I trust my experience more than others experience. Honestly I could be wrong but it just seems like I have a good understanding at this point

Just to make my point more clear, the primary cause of death with airguns are central nervous system damage and blood loss though penetrating the vitals. But a bad shot is a bad shot.

With that said, the energy a projectile carries just doesn't disappear into thin air if it doesn't fully penetrate an animal, and this can have very detrimental effects on prey, that will quicken them transferring to the other side.

If you don't agree with that, then what you are saying is you don't agree with physics.
 
Just to make my point more clear, the primary cause of death with airguns are central nervous system damage and blood loss though penetrating the vitals. But a bad shot is a bad shot.

With that said, the energy a projectile carries just doesn't disappear into thin air if it doesn't fully penetrate an animal, and this can have very detrimental effects on prey, that will quicken them transferring to the other side.

If you don't agree with that, then what you are saying is you don't agree with physics.

Don't think anyone is disagreeing that a very large projectile that carries a lot of energy isn't effective, think everyone agree that lower power but accurate projectile is just as effective. A full vital pass through is VERY effective even with lowly 177, just look up sucking chest wound.

I had a couple of bad gut shots on squirrels with 25 cal that killed them far less quickly than my 11 FPE 177 vital shot and brain shots are even faster which I've taken with 8fpe at the muzzle. However a good vital or brain shot with your 30 cal kills the squirrels a little bit more deader. LOL!
 
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Don't think anyone is disagreeing that a very large projectile that carries a lot of energy isn't effective, think everyone agree that lower power but accurate projectile is just as effective. A full vital pass through is VERY effective even with lowly 177, just look up sucking chest wound.

I had a couple of bad gut shots on squirrels with 25 cal that killed them far less quickly than my 11 FPE 177 vital shot and brain shots are even faster which I've taken with 8fpe at the muzzle. However a good vital or brain show with your 30 cal kills the squirrels a little bit more deader. LOL!
😂😂😂

Well, the point I was trying to make was about a projectile that doesn't pass all of the way through prey. As long as the projectile damaged organs and vessels on its way through, a kill is ensured. But a projectile that expends all of its energy in game can cause secondary and tertiary system disruption that can inhibit run off.

Again, even if a shot did a full energy dump, but it was a bad shot to begin with, and no critical organs or vessels were damaged, it make knock the animal unconscious for a bit, but then it may wake back up and take off! There is a YouTube airgunner named pepi_gets_it_done has an excellent video I'll link below, in where he took a coyote, and it was down for six minutes, but then got up and ran off!!! This is the stopping power of an energy dump hat also turned out to be a bad shot because it didn't hit the vitals.

 
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I'm relatively new to hunting with slugs, tried a bunch of different ones and settled on jsb 13.43 knockouts .177 for my pcp gun but recently got a Weihrauch 97k, much weaker gun, I'm averaging 653fps with the 10.03gr jsb knockouts with it.
The trajectory and energies fall off pretty bad beyond forty yards, speed is 587fps and energy is 7.7 ft lbs, verified using a FX radar chronograph at the muzzle and a Pact chronograph at the target.
I shot a dozen or so blacktail prairie dogs a week ago using H&N barracuda's at 778fps, shot's beyond 25yds all resulted in them being able to drag themselves back into the burrows, excepting of course head and neck shots.
Anyone on here ever used the jsb 177 knockouts on small game? Wondering if the hollow point on the knockouts expand well at low velocities.
Planning on shooting some rabbits and squirrels with it, actually going to let a friend use it because I'll be using my FX dreamline on the same hunt.
 
Perfesser Beeman rote thet it took les then 4 fpe at tha target tu kil a skwirl er rabitt provide you hit em in tha he’d. He figgered a 6 fpe gun ud do tha job under twenny yards.

Ah lahk a gun what makes better then 12 fpe in .22 fer skwirls but ah hav popped a buncha skwirls with a 7-8 fpe Crosman 2100.
I hope the assault on grammar is intentional!
 
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Notwithstanding everybody has taken squirrels and rabbit and even foxes with. 177 Cal, taking every thing with a. 22 Cal with 30 foot pounds is better; and. 25 Cal with above 50 pounds is even better, and. 30 Cal with 85 foot pounds is much better.

. 177 Cal is bordering the barrier of "just suitable for indoor target shooting".
That is a large load of BS ! I take rabbits with a .177, 7.2 wadcutter pellet @ 460 FPS out to apx. 20 yards FWB 600 target rifle head shot only they flip over and kick a few seconds It is ALL about shot placement .
 
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I've taken squirrels with a 177, a 22, and two different 25 PCPs. I've only shot two with my new 177 which shoots H&N Baracuda Match, 10.65 grain, about 900 fps. One was a head shot and dropped immediately. The other was a body shot and took a step or two and dropped but it was not dead. My dog finished it off by picking it up and shaking it. It made noise as she shook it so it wasn't dead at the start. I'm looking for more squirrels to gather more data. I'm sure it will work, just not sure how much they might run. This gun penetrates further in wet paper than my Prod which has taken 15 squirrels.

I was not happy with the Prod at the initial tune of 13-14 fpe at the muzzle. I tested penetration in a dead squirrel and found the lighter pellets it prefered would not shoot through. So I increased the power to about 18 fpe and none of the 11 squirrels hit at that power level ran more than a few steps.

I've shot 20 with my two 25s, 10 were body shots. Only two ran at all and the furthest they went was about 15 feet.

I also shot one squirrel with a pump up 177 at about 5 fpe. I was using a peep sight and was a little concern about shot placement so I shot for the shoulder and hit it. I found the squirrel several days later. It died but I do not shoot that gun at squirrels any more. The pellet did not make it through the shoulder. It broke it but I want enough power to get to the vitals regardless of where I hit it. It might work for head shots but I have better guns now so I use them.

I think that table is too low and using its recommendation will result in game that runs off and suffers. Sometimes I am sure that power level will work but if you hit the bigger shoulder bones I think it is iffy the animal will expire quickly.

The Alphabet org did a very extensive investigation of subjects like stopping power after their agents failed to stop some bank robbers. The report is available on line. I've read it. At handgun velocities, which are similar to air gun velocities, there is no permanent tissue damage like you see in ballistic gel or clay. At center fire rifle velocity the tissue expands too fast exceeding it's elastic limits. But our airgun projectiles do not make that sort of wound. Tissue that is not impacted expands but then just goes back as it was. So our wounds are the size of our projectiles. If they expand, then we get a wider but more shallow wound. For a high powered airgun on a sparrow, even with expansion we should get pass through. But with normal 30-40fpe airguns if we choose an expanding projectile we probably will not have pass through on a squirrel. I use simple domed pellets exclusively because I want to always have enough penetration and I like exit wounds. The only 2 squirrels that ran from my 25 caliber impacts were two of the three without a pass through (the other non-pass through was a double shoulder hit).

Energy dump is just not a thing for an airgun. The squirrels I've shot with my 40 fpe+ Avenger did not fly backward. Even the ones that did not exit did not knock the squirrel around. We make holes in animals to cause their death. We must correctly place those holes for their death to come quickly. And we must make a deep enough hole to get to vitals. Wider holes are good as long as they are deep enough.
 
Notwithstanding everybody has taken squirrels and rabbit and even foxes with. 177 Cal, taking every thing with a. 22 Cal with 30 foot pounds is better; and. 25 Cal with above 50 pounds is even better, and. 30 Cal with 85 foot pounds is much better.

. 177 Cal is bordering the barrier of "just suitable for indoor target shooting".
Been hunting with airguns all your life, right? I think a 12 ga with slugs is "just right" for squirrels, although with the reds you might need to go up to 10 ga. 3 and a half inch magnum loads in a 30 inch barrel... :cool:
 
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This is almost like religion. Some believe there is no such thing as stopping power in airguns, but physics says otherwise. If your game took a hit to the vitals, it will eventually bleed out. But, your prey can have a good to the vitals, and still run far away before all its juice runs out! 😃

If you had a projectile that did not exit, but did damage organs and the circulatory system in the process, the remaining energy left after penetration has to be transferred to the game.

This energy transfer, will probably not permanently damage your prey over what occurred with the initial penetration. But, the nervous/respiratory system can be temporarily disrupted, to incapacitate the game while it succumbs to primary organ damage and blood loss.

I stated this example before, that prey getting hit by a 950 fps projectile is the same as prey getting hit at 647 mph. Clearly, that is fast enough to cause a squirrel to loose consciousness.
 
That is a large load of BS ! I take rabbits with a .177, 7.2 wadcutter pellet @ 460 FPS out to apx. 20 yards FWB 600 target rifle head shot only they flip over and kick a few seconds It is ALL about shot placement .
It's not ALL about shot placement, although that is definitely a key. If you can hit the rabbit with a Nerf gun at that distance you still won't kill it, because you don't have enough energy. Energy isn't ALL that matters either, if you can't hit the target it doesn't matter what energy the projectile has. It's a balance between accuracy and energy. Both need to meet a minimum or you won't have game down. You can trade accuracy for energy up to a certain point and still put game down. (See slugs from a shotgun). You can trade energy for accuracy up to a point and still put game down (see any light fast tack driving anything). The key is having enough accuracy AND enough energy. It's a multi keyed lock.
 
This is almost like religion. Some believe there is no such thing as stopping power in airguns, but physics says otherwise. If your game took a hit to the vitals, it will eventually bleed out. But, your prey can have a good to the vitals, and still run far away before all its juice runs out! 😃

If you had a projectile that did not exit, but did damage organs and the circulatory system in the process, the remaining energy left after penetration has to be transferred to the game.

This energy transfer, will probably not permanently damage your prey over what occurred with the initial penetration. But, the nervous/respiratory system can be temporarily disrupted, to incapacitate the game while it succumbs to primary organ damage and blood loss.

I stated this example before, that prey getting hit by a 950 fps projectile is the same as prey getting hit at 647 mph. Clearly, that is fast enough to cause a squirrel to loose consciousness.
I suggest you review the paper by the same organization that raided mar la go recently. If my 45 doesn't have stopping power how can my 25 caliber PCP? If we hit the brain or spine we immediately disrupt the brains ability to control the animal. If we do not do that, then we have to cause enough blood loss that the brain looses it's ability to function. That can take a few seconds. With a poor hit, it can take minutes or even longer. The other confounding factor is the will to live is greater in some specimens than others. A good double lung hit may drop one squirrel immediately and another take at least a few steps.
 
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NO , in the above post it was inferred that more power is better to kill a target and large amounts of power are better , and i am saying no you do not need more power.
I get that, but you can't say no more power is needed, as you don't know the balance needed for the kill being taken. Some people will trade precision for better penetration on less than idea shots, will take significantly longer shots, will want more power for faster kills on larger animals, will want more power and forgiveness for bad shots. It's all a preference thing. Yes a lower powered projectile can kill if the shot is placed in exactly the right spot. A more powerful projectile will almost always kill more effectively assuming the accuracy is there. It will also do more damage and kill faster if the shot is bad. This holds true across every killing situation I can think of. The only down side to more power/energy I've ever encountered is damage to meat if it's intended for consumption. Again there is a balance to be struck, but that balance will be different in each hunting situation and for each hunters preferences and skills.
 
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I suggest you review the paper by the same organization that raided mar la go recently. If my 45 doesn't have stopping power how can my 25 caliber PCP? If we hit the brain or spine we immediately disrupt the brains ability to control the animal. If we do not do that, then we have to cause enough blood loss that the brain looses it's ability to function. That can take a few seconds. With a poor hit, it can take minutes or even longer. The other confounding factor is the will to live is greater in some specimens than others. A good double lung hit may drop one squirrel immediately and another take at least a few steps.
Until the feds do a technical study on the game I hunt, I'll pass on that report. 😃