I doubt the factory dedicates dies specific to each brand...that would only further feed misinformation.
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Message from JSB regarding FX pellets
- Thread starter Dcorvino
- Start date
I doubt the factory dedicates dies specific to each brand...that would only further feed misinformation.
I think it comes down to the fact that people have no understanding of manufacturing and business. why would we if were not in that industry.
it would not be cost effective for JSB to have separate dies and separate crews for each brand. the majority of manufacturing comes down to specs. FX may want tighter tolerances (or any other brand) but for a manufacturer that will usually come down to first use of dies or more likely a shorter usage period for all dies running that brand. the cheaper brands will use the dies last before they are not usable which is why you see variations in cheaper pellets. I'm not saying this is what JSB does as I have no knowledge of their business practices. when it comes to pricing, there are many variables. FX may sell pellets 10% cheaper because they move enough product to do so, and they make money on other products. in the end its all the same, all companies will make more money.
as for china clones, the biggest thing is we look at it from a rich perspective. we think it takes money for them to clone or create tooling, but it really doesn't. casting is the cheapest form of production and machining again comes down to tolerances and material, which if you have loose requirements, can be done really cheap. The other assumption is that each company is also a manufacturer. that is rarely the case anywhere in the world. different companies will use the same facility but may be looser or tighter with required specs therefore altering the cost. also, the first company to design and manufacture will bear the high initial cost. any company after that pays less as the manufacturing facility will make more money. there's a bit that goes into it but it's not usually what people think. personally, I could care less about how a business does their thing as long as I'm happy with the product.
it would not be cost effective for JSB to have separate dies and separate crews for each brand. the majority of manufacturing comes down to specs. FX may want tighter tolerances (or any other brand) but for a manufacturer that will usually come down to first use of dies or more likely a shorter usage period for all dies running that brand. the cheaper brands will use the dies last before they are not usable which is why you see variations in cheaper pellets. I'm not saying this is what JSB does as I have no knowledge of their business practices. when it comes to pricing, there are many variables. FX may sell pellets 10% cheaper because they move enough product to do so, and they make money on other products. in the end its all the same, all companies will make more money.
as for china clones, the biggest thing is we look at it from a rich perspective. we think it takes money for them to clone or create tooling, but it really doesn't. casting is the cheapest form of production and machining again comes down to tolerances and material, which if you have loose requirements, can be done really cheap. The other assumption is that each company is also a manufacturer. that is rarely the case anywhere in the world. different companies will use the same facility but may be looser or tighter with required specs therefore altering the cost. also, the first company to design and manufacture will bear the high initial cost. any company after that pays less as the manufacturing facility will make more money. there's a bit that goes into it but it's not usually what people think. personally, I could care less about how a business does their thing as long as I'm happy with the product.
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Cool, thanks for clarification. Personally, it's never made any difference to me. Whether JSB or FX pellets. They're ALWAYS my #1 choice & absolutely the most accurate out of my 3 guns.
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But, if you take the letter to mean there aren't different dies, then they all come from the same dies and wear should be equal across the three brands...
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Air Arms owns their own dies according to corporate. Exclusive to them. See AA email posted in other thread.
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I think the only way for this to be cleared up is to send me 5 tins of each. I will examine each as it flies toward its intended target. I will then report back. 
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I just don't see what the uproar is all about.
If a pellet delivers, my chin never quivers.
Peace,
J~
If a pellet delivers, my chin never quivers.
Peace,
J~
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So AA owns their own dies with exclusive rights, but fx doesn't? Or? If they are brand specific dies then the claim that one pellet may not be superior to another is false...who do I believe, JSB the manufacturer or AA/ FX and their influencers.... hmm
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Same as Matt in 2015...Here is what I received when I asked the question to AA last year.
Up until a few days ago, I had always thought that Air Arms pellets were simply re-branded JSB pellets sold at a higher price. I decided to send an email to Claire West (managing director of Air Arms) and find the truth. This was her response:
"Air Arms pellets are different to that of the JSB... https://www.airgunnation.com/threads/jsb-vs-air-arms-pellets-are-they-the-same.26284/
Up until a few days ago, I had always thought that Air Arms pellets were simply re-branded JSB pellets sold at a higher price. I decided to send an email to Claire West (managing director of Air Arms) and find the truth. This was her response:
"Air Arms pellets are different to that of the JSB... https://www.airgunnation.com/threads/jsb-vs-air-arms-pellets-are-they-the-same.26284/
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Watch the video you recommend and actually listen to the explanation. It's quite reasonable. The perpetuation of this lie is ridiculous after digesting the info and logic. Old lies die hard
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I happen to have at least a tin of each of each brand, so I happen to have FX 18.1gr on my desk, so I got the JSB equivalent. Here are a couple pictures of each
Here is a close up:
You can clearly see that the skirt is deeper on the JSB, so they are clearly different dies. I don't know what "nuance" was in the text of the letter from the OP, but the proof is in the pictures. I'll check more if, for some reason, someone doesn't believe these pictures.
Here is a close up:
You can clearly see that the skirt is deeper on the JSB, so they are clearly different dies. I don't know what "nuance" was in the text of the letter from the OP, but the proof is in the pictures. I'll check more if, for some reason, someone doesn't believe these pictures.
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Can't really go by skirt dimensions. JSB changes the dies all the dang time. These are from two different tins of JSB .22 RS pellets, purchased a couple years apart. Both tins were JSB labeled.
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Thanks for the input @Franklink !
That is interesting to see the difference. Are the "darker ones" one batch, or how can you tell them apart?
So I got my microscope out for this discussion. I took two pictures of each, one at the bottom of the skirt, and one of the skirt itself. Here are the FX pellets:
Here are the JSB, same order:
I still think that it is obvious the difference in the two. The JSB is deeper, so my point of focus is lower, and the size of the "flat spot" is smaller indicating that it is deeper in the head. You can even see "tooling marks" on the FX pellet that aren't as noticeable in the JSB.
I am really only bringing this up because I always painstakingly test all my barrels for what pellet it likes, and I have one that clearly prefers the FX over the JSB in the same weight. I shoot sub 1/2" at 50 Yards with the FX, and can do good to get below an inch with JSB with all other things being equal. The BC of the FX is higher than the JSB. I just don't see how it is possible that these are cast from the same die.
That is interesting to see the difference. Are the "darker ones" one batch, or how can you tell them apart?
So I got my microscope out for this discussion. I took two pictures of each, one at the bottom of the skirt, and one of the skirt itself. Here are the FX pellets:
Here are the JSB, same order:
I still think that it is obvious the difference in the two. The JSB is deeper, so my point of focus is lower, and the size of the "flat spot" is smaller indicating that it is deeper in the head. You can even see "tooling marks" on the FX pellet that aren't as noticeable in the JSB.
I am really only bringing this up because I always painstakingly test all my barrels for what pellet it likes, and I have one that clearly prefers the FX over the JSB in the same weight. I shoot sub 1/2" at 50 Yards with the FX, and can do good to get below an inch with JSB with all other things being equal. The BC of the FX is higher than the JSB. I just don't see how it is possible that these are cast from the same die.
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Just keep the flying monkeys out of the mix. Trouble makers if there ever were any. Always more bananas and less work.
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If you look hard and long enough, you will find FX pellets that look like the JSB'S and vice versa.
The differences are the difference between 2 batches.
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In the name of "fun" I tested a few more under the microscope. Here are the 15.89gr (Same story, FX on the left and JSB on the right):
Here is the FX:
Here is the JSB:
Obviously, the FX 25.4gr pellets are meant to copy the Monster Redesigned. Here is the regular JSB Monster:
So I went back to the pellet shelf and found the Redesigned. Here they are:
Here is a close up of the FX pellets
Here are the 24.39gr Redesigned JSB pellets
These look similar enough that I may have to concede about the difference that I saw in the 18.1gr pellets. Obviously they were made from a different die, but perhaps there is so little QC when making the dies that you can have an insane variance like this. I have never dealt with tolerances like this, so I am obviously jaded. During one of AEACs interviews with Lauren Parsons, she said that when she finds that there is a pellet that her gun likes, she will buy as many sleeves of that batch as possible. I now understand the logic in that.
Happy (and accurate) shooting!
SkeeterHawk!
Here is the FX:
Here is the JSB:
Obviously, the FX 25.4gr pellets are meant to copy the Monster Redesigned. Here is the regular JSB Monster:
So I went back to the pellet shelf and found the Redesigned. Here they are:
Here is a close up of the FX pellets
Here are the 24.39gr Redesigned JSB pellets
These look similar enough that I may have to concede about the difference that I saw in the 18.1gr pellets. Obviously they were made from a different die, but perhaps there is so little QC when making the dies that you can have an insane variance like this. I have never dealt with tolerances like this, so I am obviously jaded. During one of AEACs interviews with Lauren Parsons, she said that when she finds that there is a pellet that her gun likes, she will buy as many sleeves of that batch as possible. I now understand the logic in that.
Happy (and accurate) shooting!
SkeeterHawk!
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As others have said and even illustrated, there are easily visible differences between AA, FX, and JSB pellets. I often have a few pellets that didn't get in one of my sorted piles and it's easy to pick them up, take a look, and know which is which.
They each have easily identified visual differences from every viewpoint but the most easily identified difference is from the rear. They weigh out differently. They all perform excellently... but one either does better with my guns or some unexplainable influence has produced better results that has been consistent for years.
The various forums all contain the same controversy with the same variety of opinions. I'll keep letting reality make up my own mind.
They each have easily identified visual differences from every viewpoint but the most easily identified difference is from the rear. They weigh out differently. They all perform excellently... but one either does better with my guns or some unexplainable influence has produced better results that has been consistent for years.
The various forums all contain the same controversy with the same variety of opinions. I'll keep letting reality make up my own mind.
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