Maximum spread for hunting with PCP

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yalel

yalel

Member
Dec 4, 2018
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Holland, Netherlands
what is according to you the maximum pellet spread you should consistently capable off shooting a relevant animal within the distance you can perform that max. spread with a pcp ? 

I do believe that In case a hunter with a riffle / pellet ( or slug) combo cannot consistently shoot whithin 1 inch within the distance of the hunt the shooting on any animal shoot not be done.. I do see many videos of well known shooters on youtube shooting on 70-200 yards on birds that I cannot imagine that these guys are capable of meeting this 1 inch consistency criterium on these distances hence the video’s will not show a lot of wounded birds flying off... 

look forward to your opinions on maximum ethical spread of the pellet/slug one should be able to consistently shoot on a piece of paper before transferring that max. corresponding distance to a kill with a pcp .

In my case I can perform 1 inch group consistently till 50 yards so that is my limit for hunting with a pcp.
 
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The higher caliber airguns shooting slugs have the accuracy and energy to be effective at ranges far beyond what has been accepted as the norm for decades. It is very common for people to accept a certain distance as safe, and not reassess this number as skills and equipment advance. I see this with sub 12 shooters being adamant that a 40 or 50 yard shot is the limit for an ethical shot, which is not unreasonable at sub 12. But if you go to a 70 ft-lb gun with higher bc pellets or slugs, then, with proper dope and skill, you can move way beyond that range. Let me be clear, I have great respect for people who are shooting sub 12. It takes skill and patience to best use a sub 12 gun. However, if you use that same skill and experience with a higher powered gun, then it stands to reason that ranges can be extended ethically.

This debate is a mix of theoretical and empirical. Because live quarry is at stake, we must do our best to ensure that we will only take ethical shots. If we use the 1" kill zone as a guide, then I think that would limit ranges to under 100 yards, even for very good shooters. Empirical data, on the other hand, disputes the theory. I've seen what higher powered air rifles shooting hollowpoint slugs can do. They are so violent that any decent contact is effective. I have been hunting with one of the well known YouTube channels. They are very experienced, collect huge amounts of dope, and they hit and kill their targets. Because a less than text book hit is still so devastating, shots are either lethal, or clean misses.

The real question is, what percentage of shots must be clean hits? Ideally, and ethically, 100 percent of shots taken should be good. This is not the case at any range, or at any power level, even if the animal is in a cage. As a hunter, what number of misses is ok? 1 in 10, 1 in 100, 1 in 1,000? 
 
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what is according to you the maximum pellet spread you should consistently capable off shooting a relevant animal within the distance you can perform that max. spread with a pcp ? 

I do believe that In case a hunter with a riffle / pellet ( or slug) combo cannot consistently shoot whithin 1 inch within the distance of the hunt the shooting on any animal shoot not be done.. I do see many videos of well known shooters on youtube shooting on 70-200 yards on birds that I cannot imagine that these guys are capable of meeting this 1 inch consistency criterium on these distances hence the video’s will not show a lot of wounded birds flying off... 

look forward to your opinions on maximum ethical spread of the pellet/slug one should be able to consistently shoot on a piece of paper before transferring that max. corresponding distance to a kill with a pcp .

In my case I can perform 1 inch group consistently till 50 yards so that is my limit for hunting with a pcp.
Click to expand...


Agreed and I do the same. Not sure if it's still the same, but we have a military property that civilians are allowed to hunt on for deer. Years ago (not sure what they do now) when you applied to hunt you were tested. The tree stands are set up with markers where you are allowed to shoot. They were set up with a max distance. During the testing you have to put 3 consecutive shots into an 8" pie plate at that distance or you were not allowed to hunt. Seems like a great idea to minimize wounded animals running around.

One thing that really get me is when the "youtube" guys post shots on birds at 150yds (or similar) and guy are commenting "great shot, awesome shot" NO it's not, it was luck and in 9 out of 10 instances (IMHO) should never have been attempted. Like you say - I bet there is tons of footage of wounded birds flying off to suffer.

OK off my soapbox
 
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Thanks for your constructive comments. What about that 1 inch hit area I personally take as my restriction. Do we we the same idea here or are there different opinions ? Even with slugs I do not hear often about 1 inch groups consistently over 70 yards so in my “ theory” of ethical hunting with pcp ‘s where shot placement is essential, slugs would mean a “no go” as well as far as grouping better than pellets is concerned . A 2 or 3 inch group with slugs vs a 3 or 4 inch group with pellets in 100 yards is both a not good enough territory for hunting for me hence I restrict myself till around 50 yards where slugs and pellets don’t differ much in grouping. The only advantage left would be the less influence from windage with slugs that can be crucial I must admit on windy days to keep my 1” personal restriction. 
Please be sure I do not judge anyone with other opinions and skills than I have but just want to have opinions on this subject as I am currently wondering wether it would make sense to switch from my .25 / hades combo that is restricted till 50 yards for my given reasons to a 5.5 mm ( .22) with slug capability and try further out...
 
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My opinion is it's not just about accuracy. As DShepard mentioned, it's between the gun, ammo, quarry, and accuracy. A lot of these NSA, and hybrid slugs now either hit and kill, or miss entirely. Especially when it's something like a pigeon, where everything is a decent kill shot pretty much with a slug. Hit them in the head, instant lights out. Same with neck, and upper body. At worst, it would hit them in their lower body, but the ballistics of those hollowpoint slugs still make it a rather swift death. Now, if you're hunting with pellets, it's another story. Especially if they're domes. I personally like to stick to distances that I can shoot sub-moa groups at, which for me, is about 70-80 yards. And again, it depends on the target. I wouldn't shoot a groundhog or raccoon with my 25 cal Kral Arms at 80 yards, because it would only have about 20-25 fpe at that distance, and I wouldn't want to risk injuring it (unless it was causing serious property damage and needed to be removed immediately). 

Anyways, I would try an fx gun in 25 cal with slugs, if you want to reach further out. And if you're hunting at ranges with 3-4" groups, be sure that anything you hit in that area on your prey, will be a clean kill. Otherwise don't take the shot, ya know? 

Regards
 
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The real question is, what percentage of shots must be clean hits? Ideally, and ethically, 100 percent of shots taken should be good. This is not the case at any range, or at any power level, even if the animal is in a cage. As a hunter, what number of misses is ok? 1 in 10, 1 in 100, 1 in 1,000?
Click to expand...

Well said.

There is no guarantee. You take enough shots even at 50yds and you'll experience a miss.
 
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1 foot pound of energy per pound of body weight. So to me I’m good shooting 200lb hogs out to 130 yards. I know men who will take that shot out to 200 yards. The weapon has more to do with it as it is harder to connect in a 3” kill-zone the greater the distance. If I don’t have confidence in the gun I won’t take it to the field.

Matter of fact I’m sitting in the blind right now with my .257 instead of my .308 because in dry firing it bent the loading tray and screwed up the leade. I tried a field repair that did not work. So it’s on the bench for now.
 
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There are so many things to consider when making this kind of a decision. What game? What rifle? What range? I'll shoot a ground hog farther than I'll shoot a squirrel with some of my rifles and I'll take a squirrel farther than I will a ground hog with other rifles. The ground hog takes more killing, but the kill zones are larger. This can be expanded to include every potential target animal and you can then figure out just what you yourself are able to accomplish.

Break your task down into pieces and set criteria you have to meet:

What am I trying to kill? An eastern gray squirrel.

How big is the kill zone? For this animal I use 3/4 of one inch because I only take head shots.

How much energy needs to be delivered? Maybe 6 FPE if you double what a perfect shot would require.

So for that critter I need to be able to deliver 6 fpe into 3/4 inch at whatever range.

Now set up your rifle and practice till you know your limits.
 
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Subscribed! 😄

One issue is of course our group size — if we CAN hit the area we have defined as appropriate kill zone for the animal we are shooting.



The other is what DShepard hinted at: With what consistency can we hit that killzone, i.e., what percentage of our shots do we require from ourselves to be inside the killzone? 100%, 75%, 2/3?? 🤔 In other words — what first-shot hit probability do we require from ourselves?



And our ideal-conditions-percentage gets strongly influenced if there is any wind, potential ranging errors, muzzle velocity variations (ES), a non-stable rest, or a moving target.... 😟





🔶 Just today I stumbled upon a ballistic calculator that uses Monte-Carlo simulations to calculate the first-shot hit probability.

APP: OnPointBallistics (paid version)

I'll try this out sometime! 👍🏼

Matthias








 
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Great topic! First, I consider myself an ethical hunter. In short, presuming the caliber and projectile energy are reasonable for the prey.

For me it comes down to my confidence that I can take an accurate shot (also considering the flight time of the projectile in relation to the movement of the animal, wind, et al). If I'm not confident that I will be able to hit where I'm aiming and dispatch the animal with that shot, I won't take the shot.

I spend a lot of time with my hunting rifles in varying conditions to identify the effective range of each of them. I like my PCPs to shoot as flat as possible, and practice to the point where I'm intimately familiar with hold points on my reticles throughout the rifles' effective ranges. 


 
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