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Manufacturing of PcP

I will say this brilliant one liner, that I want Ed, or anyone avoiding China or similar countries manufacturing for personal reasons to consider...



"You cost both YOUR Country and Countries you support DOLLARS, while only reducing the profits of an opposed Country by pennies, when avoiding the most efficient/economical means of obtaining the same end product for equal profit margins"



So you pay an employee a few dollars to make the part in your native country, and then turn around and charge both what you paid him + some (because employees must be profitable) to your countries customers...you think you're doing your country a favor but you're not..




If one wants to market their brand as '100% US/Russia made', that is fine, but at the end of the day, its a large part of the reason a rifle cost 2-3x as much as the same version built in China to equal standards, and yes it can be done...



I think Ed's digital pressure gauge was a great move for the industry, very innovative, possibly needing revising or simplification but still awesome...make it solar / motion powered ie: recoil of rifle re-energizes along with solar...and then you have some truly ground breaking tech that belongs on every single air gun...I deeply want one some day, but I think any first revision of a product, is not going to be its final, or rather, it shouldn't be...



I can, and have drafted designs, most pneumatic timings such as balanced valves or pneumatically actuated valves simply require mass flow calculations to obtain fill rates, or a gorilla that just tosses parts together until they work...either will suffice.




Electronic Valve design with nearly 0 wasted space, vastly benefiting larger calibers with over 2 CC's of space between valve seat and pellet base, or any caliber with small plenums..



External plenums that are sized to the calibers power needs, any caliber can run regulated provided adequate plenum volume, rarely manufacturers allow this...



Sensor at muzzle that severely reduces the exit diameter after pellet exit to vastly reduce the rate of which the remaining air is allowed to exit, greatly reducing exposure of HPA to ATM over time...hair trigger actuates a dilation of the orifice by means of a impervious material that isn't destroyed upon contact due to its design angles, material, and tolerances...seemingly impossible, but nothing is...certainly less than practical in the current day and age...but in 1000 years? Who knows...maybe it'll be done within 100 ;)



Actual pistol pcp's in an actual pistol form factor that produce high energy (inefficiently)..large caliber. One can engineer enough on board air to make it worthwhile, .30" cal 7.5" barrel can still make ~70 FPE. or 150~ FPE in .45 cal. For an all out PCP hunter, I think having something like this in your arsenal is a must, for finishing shots at close range if found necessary, plus the cool factor...its not the most practical PCP but, hell neither is semi automatics but manufacturers and people insist on introducing those into the sport..



Adjustable dovetail/pic rails in the sense that you can simply adjust their front most angle up/down...not a hard thing to implement IMO...its simply designed into breech and allows movement of one section of rail a few MM vertically



The list just goes on and on...I just gave away a few solid ideas for free...some very feasible and easy to implement, others not...and as I said the list can be long in this regard to pcp's and their tech..don't even get me started on NANO tech..



Almost all current PCP designs are simply borrowed from one to another...rarely do you see innovation or originality. I've seen very few companies do things others have not, Edgun being one of the few and I certainly respect that.



I agree 100% that most air gun technology is unchanged and very simple. I also understand Ed's reasons and business logic. I've been very adamant that most my opinion on this matter applies to large scale production air guns, not the small guy...most businesses begin outside of garage space or peoples personal homes...its near impossible to develop all the necessary relationships right off the bat, but the MOST successful business will evolve and do so quickly, by finding the most economical means of producing their product...its not just economical, its efficiency...money out vs money in...if you can maintain the same efficiency across the board but scale back the money out vs money in, everyone wins.



I still disagree with associating a cost for R&D time in terms of building blueprints to a PCP design...its very simple, most are copied and pasted designs from 200 years ago with simple additions, it should be fun and exciting, and only needs done once...you shouldn't impose a cost for time YOU invest in a way to make future time profitable for yourself...JMO...the world revolves enough around money, no need to induce more of it...



-Matt
 
Build it and they will come 

Matt, built it baby. Let’s see the words on paper become reality. If you can build a PCP with ground breaking efficiency and with power if desired, that is all that, then I encourage you to do it. I’m not poking at you, I’m being serious. 

Take my money 🤪

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I'm with @zx10wall on this one; I think it is time we start a Matt Ackuric group buy, or at least waitlist thread. God knows I'd be the first in line to buy this revolutionary new PCP for a mere 1000$. Better accuracy, efficiency, light weight, exotic materials, and all around performance for a mere 1K$? Lets show Matt that starting a company to build this airgun is a good investment, and the whole airgun industry that there is in fact a market for an airgun which is revolutionary, undisputably better, and cheaper than the competition eh?!!! No more mediocre overpriced airguns for 1.5K$+. What do you say Matt? 
 
Very insightful Ed. I've always liked your no BS approach to things and the way you tell it like it is. Nothing to hide. It's one of the reasons that I buy your products.



I know that based on the Anglo-Saxon mentality Russians seems to be rude. In fact we are just direct. Why should I dance around, waisting time, playing the games like a young boy plays the rituals around youg girl just to convince her to make sex, though both of them knows what will be at the end? It is better to say openly what you want and just start the negotiations rather than wasting half an hour for weather talk. I know that those Americans or Brits who work in Russia or with Russians are shocked with that feature in the beginning but they start liking it very quickly. Or they still play their polite games? :)



Matt, I am called the ****ing corrupt bastard by some Russians just because I made video in English. They think that patriotism is the hatred to others, Americans for example. So, I doubt that I am on the way "Make Russia great again!" and the proof of my flexibility is that I moved part of the production to EU and guns made in Russia are for Russian market, built in EU for worldwide market. So I undertand that it doesn't matter where the staff is made, the matter is in the fact, who has invented that staff. That is why Apple products are "USA made" in spite of the fact they are produced in China. 



So, you have mentioned EDMU, yes, that is complete EDgun invention and since we are the first one who made it, we no doubt made something wrong, that is normal. And I want to keep the ideology and technology core here, in Russia. That is the only way i can control everything. In our time the ideas cost much more than the products. Asiats are great in coping and improving and I don't want to give them any chance to go the easy way :)

As for the rest, I've told you already my meaning about of those fancy things and my oppinion is very simple -- it is better make than talk, that is why I don't speak out anything about the things I am workin on now and I am very patient and can wait for a long time before I am ready to sell complete guns instead of talking how great they will be. That is another mistake I make, seeing how widely the other manufacturer advertize their guns, they just plan to make... 
 
Edgun,

Your correct about the Russian patriotism. It funny how the Russians think of patriorism. The Russians have to have someone to blame (US) for every problem they encounter. Then they get angry and cant understand why the rest of the world doesn't speak Russian and isn't ruled by Russia. They associate anything "international" as being "anti-Russian" now. It's really sad.

I'm not just saying it this, I got family in both Russia, Ukraine, and the Untited States. I see it, the family in Russia are now unable to even speak to family members in Ukraine or US now without feeling like they are somehow "unpatriotic".

Must be difficult being in such a hard spot, being an international Russian business, trying to keep both sides happy. Let's hope stupid inter-national politics never get into airguns!
 
China is a habitual thief of IP and if not for oversigtht from OEM's couldnt make poop. It's government policy to steal. That is the only brilliance at play. I woudnt buy an Edgun made in China or anything else of "real" value. 

Looking forward to that ground breaking air rifle Matt is cooking up. Its going to revolutionize the industry. 

Regards

DT
 
So, for those that know, whats it cost to manufacture a high to mid quality pcp. Exotic materials ?, vendor supplied parts, machining, assembly labor, qc, importing fees, etc,,,?. Of course R&D has to be factored in.

Just would like to know what I'm really getting for my $2500+ other then a quality high end brand Name. How many of these type guns do manufactures sell each year, is it hundreds, or 10's of thousands ? Is there a justifiable massive commissions markup, or do they just cost that much to make..?



I doubt that some of the manufacturer will tell you the exact information but I am a stupid Russian who used to go on my own way not playing the "normal" business rules :)

Yes, if calculated the cost of the "magic material" one can think that the making PCP guns is piece a cake! Quite often I hear from some Russian commenters on my youtube channel or in forums something like that "He, dude, that piece of poop cannot cost more than 150 euro, the rest 1 000 euro is just the level of the Ed's greed!" And you know that I used to tried to tell them the figures but I failed out, those who has some idea in his brain curved is unable to listen to the arguments :) So, now I jsut agree, saying: "Yes, I am VERY VERY greedy! Now having knowing it you just have to live with it!". 



I have no experience with talking this subject with the foreigners, that is why this topic has caught me, I am an idealist and thinking that maybe people here are more patient to know the truth :) At least I see that the atmosphere in this forum is much better :)



The materials are nothing in the cost, you are right. When the price of the aluminum raised twice I just didn't care about it, as it is nothing to the cost of the gun. What is the cost?



1. Barrels -- the good quality barrel cost over 100 euro. Even the blank from LW cost from 40 euro. I don't buy blanks, they made barrels based on my specifications and I am getting them from LW "ready to be installed". https://www.lothar-walther.com/



2. Stock -- in fact good walnut stock cost. Just in case you can check the price for the stocks at ArtDecArt I work with here: https://guns.artdecart.com/ Note that they didn't updated site for a long time, as you can see there are only R3M stocks and the old Lelya. So, those prices were valid for 3-4 years ago. Price in rouble, now the exchange rate is 66 roubles per 1 USD. Yes, that is retail price, but I can tell you the price for me wasn't much less :) As you can see there are not R5M stocks, which is more expensive. The problem of the price in Russia is that all CNCn machines, tools etc are linked to euro or USD and when the roubles goes down the price in roulbes goes up!



3. The parts. As I told before CNC machines, tools, service and so on all are in USD or currency. Plust the customs fees, VAT etc. That makes the cost of the machine hour quite high, though I can say that the price of the CNC machine hour is not cheap at the West as well. That is the main cost of the gun.



4. Assembling. That cost money as well, I have over 12 people working only for assembling and testing guns. I try to pay them the good salary as I know exactly that only those who is paid fairly can work honestly. Just for example, the average salary of my workers at the assembling point is 3-5 times more than the average salary in the town. Indirect sign of the fact that my people value what they do is the fact that I have nobody leaving company for over 15 years. I lost just one person, who was with me from the beginning, he died few years ago. His wife works for me (some of you may know her, Tatyana, who is dealing with the parcels for you), his son is working for me, the wife of his son is working for me, his daughter is working for me and the husband of his daughter is working for me :) Sometimes I think that EDgun is their family company, not mine! :)



5. Taxation. I hate it. No, I HATE IT. but have to pay, probably much less that in some West countries but have to and that adds the cost price. There are some tricks in calculating taxes, they say us "Hey, what are you talking about, you pay only 6 % of the income!", Yep, we say, but you mention only the direct taxes, let's calculate the indirect taxes we pay, it is over 60 %, They say "That is demagogy!" But I think you know what I am talking about :) The same is in your countries more or less. 



6. The main problem -- the volume of the guns produced. CNC machines are very expensive and the process takes long time. There is possibility to decrease the cost price but all those mass production technology are EXPENSIVE! Very! Yes, one can save a lot of money to making some part by casting or with MIM technology but it cost a lot! For example the mold for the plastic stock for R5M cost me over 50 000 euro and I still have not it available, though I have paid it over one year ago. So I estimate that if one has the volume less than 20-30 thousand guns per year that is not reasonable to use those technology, the time of payback is long and buyers will require new guns in few years when the molds are just paid back and here we go again... :) That is why PCP are expensive, too much labor in them. 



7. Last but not least -- logistic and the dealers interest. Having entered that world I was naive and thought that manufacturer shold earn more than the seller. :) Really!? I had "luck" to have the proposal from one of the hugest retail company, selling guns over the world. I've read the contract and I sad to the owner of the company "I see that signing that I will be your total slave forever, I'd prefer to stay away of all your "sweet" proposals and will try to do my best myself". Besides now I know why they can make huge discounts and still be profitable :) That is why I am working with the people I know personally. Yes, sometimes I fail as well. For example Tony Rudenko stole about 50 000 euro from me, that was one of the reason I fired him. poop happens, but I prefer to move forward and that principle works well for last 15 years both in Russia and out of it.



Money -- I don't take credits from banks. I hate them as they behave like jackals, at least here in Russia. They don't care about you, about your business. the only thing they care is money. You can die, they will earn on it. The banks in Russia is something. The annual interest is 25 and over %. So, having taken 1 mln I have to pay them back in a year 1.25 min. Am I stupid? I prefer to go forward small steps rather than make a huge jump forward and then working 20 hours a day making them richer and being owing them for the rest of my life. F...k them! I don’t owe anybody! That is why I consider that the only bank I owe is my clients, that is why I cannot afford myself to make huge mistakes, that is why I have to care about quality, as that is the only way to stay afloat. That is my philosophy...

Hope I made it a little more clear at least regarding one of the PCP manufacturer :) I don't know the situation with the others, in fact.



With the best regards



Ed




ed, how do you find time to monitor all these forums, participate in them with lengthy responses, personally answer all your emails (yes you replied to me recently), design and manufacture guns - do you ever sleep??
 
ed, how do you find time to monitor all these forums, participate in them with lengthy responses, personally answer all your emails (yes you replied to me recently), design and manufacture guns - do you ever sleep??



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WBbp0oMsOM





If seriously I read very quickly, I type very quickly, I work very quickly, I understand problems and find solutions very quickly and most important thing I trust people who I work with. And I can delegate some of my tasks to them, just controlling the results :) So, in fact my task is very easy, to generate ideas and let them grow in a right way with the right people enjoying life :)
 
ED,

I appreciate your response here and your contributions to our great sport. As with any sport / hobby there is an entry cost, if its too high don’t participate. Lots of complaining here in these posts in my opinion. As for me I’m saving $400 per month to buy your new Leyla 2.0! And can’t barely wait to get her into my hands!



Beach-gunner
 
OK, I'm late to the party, and lots good of information is flying around. Why are good guns so expensive? Lots of reasons.

R&D / Design work can be expensive. Designing a gun, parts, arranging for inventory to be ready for assembly, packaging, then marketing the new model all takes loads of cash.

Manufacturing the gun itself and assembly into those cute boxes takes boatloads of cash.

Shipping, importing, duties, and such all take boatloads of cash.

Dealers make a profit on ever gun for receiving them, carrying inventory, warehouses, employees, and such all takes boatloads of money.

I learned a valuable lesson many years ago while working at K-Mart (before Walmart was a force to destroy K-Mart and Sears). Even the cheap imported stuff on the shelves, K-Mart sold for 100% markup.

So while a $1000 gun might only cost a couple hundred to manufacture, there's a whole lot of overhead and everyone has to make a profit along the way. that's the way the system works and why people keep improving air guns!
 
I first owned a benjamin / sheridan $100 then a gamo springer $125 then went to a maurder $450 and now i am on a wildcat $1300 i wished i would have started with the wildcat if you can see where it took me. You kind of get what you pay for. Lets face it if they werent this good they the price would not be there. I love this gun it is small powerful and quiet with a donny sumo and dont forget accurate. cant ask for no more.