Manufacturing of PcP

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You know we, here in Russia, say in these cases "The dick in the hands of others is always thicker!". Those who is out of the reality easy can "calculate" how everything should be done and it always work! On paper... Despite careful planning, things often go wrong in their final accomplishment. If it is possible to make 300 USD gun which will shoot? Yes, it is possible, no doubt! Will that gun be the same as 2 000 USD gun? No, as well as 10 000 USD car will not be equal to the 50 000 USD car, though both of them are supposed to execute the same function, to bring my ass from A point to B point and both of them can do it.



The difference is in nuances. I easily can buy Russian made car, which new would cost me less than used Toyota Land Cruiser I own now, but I prefer to take the last one. There are too many difference from the comfort (which I can neglect ,no doubt) to the safety on the road (2.5 ton car, in which I am placed half a meter higher than in a “normal” car, gives me much more chances to survive comparison to “the car with the same functionality”).



I don’t want to tell anything against “cheap” ariguns, but I know for sure, if one’s task is to save, that will cover all aspects of the production, from the picking up the material to the calculations of the parts based on the safety parameters. That is always compromise. Yesterday I saw video about Leshiy made in Vietnam. It looks almost exactly as normal Leshiy (I can see the difference), but it cost twice as less at the normal one. I am not talking now about the theft of the idea (they even copied the labels on the gun), that is just a question of the mentality, but I doubt that the safety issues were the same detailed considered. Even at the stage of the material choice. Would I buy that? No doubt NO! As we say here “I wasn’t born in the garbage bin to eat garbage.” I have only one life and have no intention to play “Russian roulette” with the unknown manufacturer just to save some bucks…



As for the production efficiency. Sure I am looking the best way to produce guns, based on the quality/cost principle. But if you think that the task is easy, just to find “the right” company to give them blueprints and have fun while others working for you, you are completely wrong! To those who have no idea about CNC it seems so easy, ANY CNC machine can make ANY part! Yep… not really. Here is an example of the different models of CNC machine making the same detail. Pay attention to the time of the processing. And, yes, there are different CNC machines for different parts to be made. And one type CNC machine is not equal the others. So, going to the factory with one type CNC machine which is not good for making your parts you will get in trouble.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdoN-gyLC_4&feature=youtu.be



I don’t even talk about the mentality, control and other parameters. For almost 20 years I have tried different companies and I can say, it doesn’t work. The last attempt with the other company I made a year ago, it took them almost a year to find out they are unable to follow to my quality requirements, even having machinery working for the Russia military :) So, now my task is to take back my advance payment USD 50 000.



The other issue is those who say “Hey, I can make the gun equal to the quality to the top PCP guns and it will cost less!” And again I don’t doubt he can do it! But, they always make the same mistake, they don’t calculate their time for that, they consider it free. In fact that is not correct. I passed that myself, starting with 3-5 guns a month and then growing the number of guns made. And I can say that even the principle of the organization of production for 5 guns a month and 50 guns a month is completely different. Everything! That looks like one looking at the runner, who runs 100 meters for 10 seconds say “Hey, why everybody are so proud of him, I can run 100 meter for 12 seconds, that is just 2 seconds more but I can train better and will achieve the same result!” I call them “theoretic”, they have no idea that those 2 seconds take 90 % of the power to reach that result than all the previous made work! I never heard anything like that from those who works with the production of anything, maybe because they know exactly as it functions….




 
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I run my own business, my grandfather successfully ran his own business for over 50 years, I was never a part of his business, I made my own...I don't just write things on paper, or calculate ballpark figures, I reverse engineer other paths of success because you're a fool if you think you're the first to any one you find yourself... I do so in such a way that either works or doesn't. If it works its repeatable, hence why certain manufactures bringing very acceptable quality goods to the market at very reasonable prices, because its a feasible concept that is profitable, but my entire premise is based on high rate / mass production, likely through already established manufacturers that simply take CNC designs and produce them. I am sure any country that doesn't out source 90% of their work to China or of the like, are going to see a huge increase in end product cost both to themselves and their customer...for a manufacturer with small quotas or limited productions I would imagine there being a 'premium' cost to purchasing one...however a large scaled business I feel only shorts both themselves and their customers by not finding more economical means.

'Cheaper' or more economical doesn't mean less integrity...it can lead to such, but it doesn't have to...many metal/fabrication industries in China are far superior to others, they are the world leaders for a reason...and they have equal good/bad factories just like any the United States and Russia do...but you cannot write off an entire country just because of a bad experience or two...

Time involved in ones personal research and findings should be free, its only when the research leads to an innovative, ground breaking, unseen or heard of technology that is patent worthy that there should be a price to pay for it (and I even argue that not worthy)...creating a form factor for an already established platform (PCP's) is really silly to associate a cost with, even if it takes any time...time is only money in the eyes of someone whose life revolves around it...I've given a ton away for free in terms of knowledge in regards to how pcp's function by design, to how to make a balance valved perfectly tunable with a bell curve...I could design dynamic seals that would never stick and self lubricate each stroke...you want to talk advancements in pcp's, I'm years ahead of most in terms of technology...and I can provide in depth analysis and data of all my conclusions, be them theory or practical laws of physics, and mechanical engineering...



I can tell you precisely how to actuate a valve that ejects 10,000 MG of air in under 2 MS to produce 600 FPE of energy at the muzzle, with as little as 10 grams of hammer weight, be it mechanically, or electronically, I could even tell you how to do it pneumatically, or hydraulically...my physics calculations aren't theoretical.



-Matt
 
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Matt, you have no idea how many people came to me with almost the same words about the uniq ideas and so on. I always asked them just one question -- Give me the draft of the parts, I will make them, assemble them and if it will work as you describe -- I will buy it from you, that the only way to proove the idea is to repeat it by other people with the other tool base. No one agreed, I don't know the reason, either they didn't believe me, or they were not sure in the "geneiousity" of fheir invention. Recently some guy at my forum approached to me with the idea of the wonderful valve, in fact I was so sick and tired of the genious that I just ignored him, silly me...I hope he will find some inverstors who will value his invention and they both became rich men, as the other producers, still use the same out of date PCP primitive scheme and one who invent some principle new one will kill us all, I am waiting...



As for China, I don't have the experience of work with them, but I have a lot of who had. I rembmer one guy when he started to work with China in the mold making sphere he told me "Ed, that is awesome, they can make EVERYTHING for funny money. The future is China!", In few years I met him again, asked about how succesfull he was with China, he told "They have hands from ass. They make the samles OK and than, when you are relaxing they start to make poop. If you want to control them you need someone living on the factory, otherwise it is not working! So I return back to Russia, at least I know what I can get here!" I am not agree with him 100 %, as I know we have a lot of people with hands growing out of ass here in Russia, as well as everywhere. But funny thing is, we have made the investigation of the possibility to make some parts in China. To our surprise we found out that the price of the good quality work there cost almost the same money as in EU or USA. There are no miracles in the world now. The quality costs almost the same money everywhere. 



I agree with you in one thing -- the present PCP world is out to date and stuck in 50 years old reality. Yes, it is much better than it used to be due to the new materials, machines and processes, but the prinsiple of work is the same as Gerardoy PCP rifles 200 year old. The future for the new methods of working with the air and I spend a lot of money in the test works in order to make a completely principle new airgun. Time will show if I wil be in a success or not...








 
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Build it and they will come 

Matt, built it baby. Let’s see the words on paper become reality. If you can build a PCP with ground breaking efficiency and with power if desired, that is all that, then I encourage you to do it. I’m not poking at you, I’m being serious. 

Take my money 🤪

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1549024860_19892152205c543e5c5ebd58.37174044_D0801A2C-C173-4959-BBA3-D177142545BD.gif



 
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Ed, 

Thank you for conversing with us on this level. No other owner/manufacturer has the courage to do so. Now will you just make your trigger a little better and make the first stage travel adjustable 🤓

You’ve always listened to sound criticism and made adjustments as needed. You make solid guns, this is certain. They not only look the part but they can perform and perform superbly under heavy and abusive use. 
 
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Привет Эд! I guess this “hands sticking out of one’s bottom” is Русский phrase? How do you write or say that in Russian? Спасибо. Пока.
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Yes, that is Russian, we say shortly "Руки из жопы!" when we are disappointed with someone missuse the tool or the device and due to that missuse something was broken. That is the description of the person. The short name of the person who has his hands grown from ass is "Рукожоп", you can use both names to find video in youtube. The full phrase is "У него руки растут из жопы!", that is literally is translated as "He has his hands growing out of ass!". One should pronounce it with the light fatigue in the voice, as usually it is obvious that this person is рукожоп and he just confirmed it one more time with his stupid act. Some examples:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf1ZTx_f37U









https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anYkr2le71s















https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWKhHLVvVuo



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkWgznFUwrk






 
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EDgun

I have a question. How many of your products have come to consumers ?
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I don't understand the question. Do you mean how many guns do I produce? Depends on the year, About 3-5 thousand guns per year, all models, both Russian and West market. Since I have no stocks, it means all guns are sold immidiately after they are produced, and quite often the demand is over my ability to produce and dealers have to wait, so all those guns goes to the customers. Is it what you wanted to know? 
 
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Ed... thank you for your input... found it interesting and certainly shows a good bit of what a manufacturer goes through. Thanks for sticking to it and giving us such great rifles , as well!

My only real exposure to the manufacturing was when LD offered 7 Simple Simon's for $1000 each. He spent a huge amount of energy and time on that project to prove a point. The sheer magnitude of time wasn't even remotely worth it , but that's kind of who he is... loves to prove points. I certainly regret not buying one but at least bought a first run USFT. Fast forward slightly... Tim M picked up the project and they worked together to engineer a more production capable version and Tim offered it at $1600 initially . That's quite a bit of difference but even at that, I don't believe Tim made much per rifle AND he has to pay up front for all the parts to continue. He now charges around $2000 but I still don't think he is making that much. The reason I bring all this up... there isn't a smaller part count rifle that I know of that's worthwhile. The main cost then would appear to be the machining cost for the machine shops to pay their overhead. Add a Minneli stock... who knows what that costs. Of course, Tim is dealing with Republik of Kali taxes, costs and rules, but likely the main real difference in China and Kali would be the labor... maybe materials and government subsidies .. if they exist in Turkey or China , as well. Makes what Crosman does appear amazing. 

Think about what that that Nova Vista Freedom would cost to produce in the US or Germany or Japan . It's COMPLICATED ... sooo many parts. Last time you could buy a Sharp Ace in the US was in the late 90s and it was $500 and nowhere near as complicated AND Sharp supposedly had little interest in shipping them here because they sold in Japan for $800.

So I guess if you don't want to spend the money .. don't . There are those of us that value what goes into good rifles .

Bob
 
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One thing that Ed mentioned but is always ignored by many complaining about the high cost of a rifle is Research and Development. It can be easy for any one to buy all the parts and assemble a rifle but you have to factor in the time it takes to make a rifle unique!. Everything now has to be signed off by an Engineer. This can cost huge. If you want to redesign the block, valve, side lever or anything internal this involves at minimum a technical drawings and testing. All this has to be again signed off by an engineer for safety. I can only imaging what the cost of the Galahad unique side lever may have cost them in R & D. I am sure FX in laying out thousands developing a slug barrel. And I am sure a lot of money went into research that didn't pan out. I watched a video where Ed went back to an original part after a "so called" engineered improvement failed. There is also insurance for potential hazards ( rifle explodes). The other factor that most people don;t take into account is that this is a very small market. A big seller air rifle for the year may be peanuts compared to what Remington produces. When you sell as may rifles as say Remington sells, you can afford to get less profit per rifle. 


 
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Yes, you are right, it works like that. When you make few guns by your own, the cost price is relatively low, Then you need to increase the volume and the cost price is increasin as well, as you have to pay more money for diffrent things, including labour cost. And it goes up until the volume is so huge, that the labour and other expenditures are not too much to be considered, in this case the cost price drops down. So, I estmate that to produce the low price gun with a good quality, using all the modern technologies, the anual volume should be calculated starting from 50 000 guns. No one of the airgun manufacturers has such a volume, I mean high end PCP guns. That is the only reason.
 
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