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Manufacturing of PcP

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acs

acs

Member
Oct 22, 2018
351
24
S.FL, United States
So, for those that know, whats it cost to manufacture a high to mid quality pcp. Exotic materials ?, vendor supplied parts, machining, assembly labor, qc, importing fees, etc,,,?. Of course R&D has to be factored in.

Just would like to know what I'm really getting for my $2500+ other then a quality high end brand Name. How many of these type guns do manufactures sell each year, is it hundreds, or 10's of thousands ? Is there a justifiable massive commissions markup, or do they just cost that much to make..?
 
As a 13+ year owner/operator of a few custom fabrication / paint shops, 
I'll just say this.. IF one was to exclude the price and time for research and design, and wanted to do everything in-house...
Just the cost of the machinery would make most people fall over. Assuming they're buying new..
CNC machine / VMC machine / Lathe / for milling / shaping, then there cutting, sanding, polishing equipment, etc..
Excluding more time / money for QC, assembling - Finishing anodize / powdercoat / etc
Tools, bits, dies, the list really could go on and on.. Then factor in the cost of a facility - even a small one, the overhead cost, 
plus experts to run the machines, people to do specific tasks - fitting, assembling, testing - all the way to packaging, shipping/receiving..

Tens of thousands is easy to drop.. Well over 100K+ for large/serious manufacturers..

I personally had 10s of thousands invested in my shops, and I outsourced machine..
My equipment was only the basic metal working fabrication equipment, a few welders, paint booths, etc..

When I worked at a few metal fab shops that were subcontracted by large companies to make their parts, 
those shops easily had hundreds of thousands if not well over $1m+

Granted we were building things like Ferris equipment, Scissor jacks, Forklifts, etc..

Hopefully that just gives a quick idea..

Sam -
 
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Want my honest opinion? I could build you an air assisted valve, side lever action, 480 cc bottle fed, in any form factor such as impact, standard rifle, bullpup, ect, with titanium res, regulated, full bore ported, retracting moderator, adjustable from power/regulator to stock, anti hammer bouncing tech, for under 1,000$....granted I wouldn't make much of a dime but all those features are premium and beyond what is available in 2,000$ mass produced rifles, and the former build is a one off... Large mark ups due to branding is all too common. Look at ATI Vista Nova Liberty, 300$ regulated / side lever / high fill pressure / adjustable...you wanna tell me any 2000$ rifle on the market is that vastly superior to it? 



Some of the technology advancements with pcp's has come a good ways, but at the end of the day its just o-rings, fasteners, and some machined parts in a particular form factor with a certain set of features...none of the above being valued (to me) or worth anything near what some of the current manufacturers set their market value at...the accuracy of a pcp is superb, any brand can achieve said remarkable accuracy provided a half decently rifled barrel and some quality ammunition...beyond that its 100% the shooter and external factors, which more times than not, with our pcp's...is the ultimate deciding factor with how well our groups turn out....



-Matt
 
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Look at ATI Vista Nova Liberty, 300$ regulated / side lever / high fill pressure / adjustable...you wanna tell me any 2000$ rifle on the market is that vastly superior to it? 

-Matt
Click to expand...

Hence why I asked. Wasn't sure if some of these high end pcp use exotic 'unobtainium' materials, explaining their price structure over a pcp that needs almost the same exact parts/machining/assembly as a higher end rifle, maybe its the fit and finish that doubles the price.... Anyhow, in the market for another pcp and just want an educated reason why I should spend 2 or even 3 times for 1 gun over another that really offers very similar, maybe slightly less, features.What I'm saying is, are these top price pcp worth 4 or 5 times the cost of my Mrod that quietly does a full 10 round mag @ 50 yards in a dime size hole or less..? Some body explain to me what these high end guns do to justify their price. Or is it a status/beauty thing..?
 
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Hahaha "unobtanium" is some serious stuff!
The CERN LHC is the only thing I know of that can cut / weld it, and it's almost as hard to get as dark-matter. 🤣 

As far as materials go, nope, nothing special involved..
For the most part, Aluminum, Brass, Steel, Stainless Steel, sometimes Titanium [but rarely] 
Then things like composite / rubber bushings / o-rings, and lastly plastics, polymers, woods..

Anyone with mechanical skills and 'basic' tools can most definitely make a PCP pistol/rifle.
[Several components would actually even be better off farmed out / purchased from other companies also]

What gets me - I have a few rifles that use a steel mag w/ o-rings to hold the rounds.. Nothing special.
I could literally make them [almost 1:1 replicas] using the tools that I have now..
I might have a few bucks into one..

Some companies charge 20-30 bucks for them.. Okay, no biggie..

Another company charges 100+ bucks for their version of One.

*Falls over in shock* haha

Sam -

PS: Mike brought up an awesome point! Legalities also involved..
Insurance, Lawyer, Expenses/Fees, etc.. That list can go on and on as well..

 
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acs,

I have four PCP rifles currently.. Ranging from around $400 up to shy of $800
Of all of them - My 'budget' Kral Arms Puncher Breaker has to be one of my favorites.
And not just out of those 4 rifles.. I'm talking out of ALL of the 20-30 air rifles I've had..
I'll even go as far as to say - Even including my powder burners.
Why? I'm just amazed at how well it shoulders for me, the weight distro, accuracy, etc.
And I can achieve pellet in/on pellet shots with it time and time again.. It's just so much fun!

So no.. People most definitely don't have to spend a bunch of cash for a 'better' product..
They just need to find something that works, and works best for them.

I'm a big advocate of that!

🙂 

Sam -
 
Upvote 0
As a 13+ year owner/operator of a few custom fabrication / paint shops, 
I'll just say this.. IF one was to exclude the price and time for research and design, and wanted to do everything in-house...
Just the cost of the machinery would make most people fall over. Assuming they're buying new..
CNC machine / VMC machine / Lathe / for milling / shaping, then there cutting, sanding, polishing equipment, etc..
Excluding more time / money for QC, assembling - Finishing anodize / powdercoat / etc
Tools, bits, dies, the list really could go on and on.. Then factor in the cost of a facility - even a small one, the overhead cost, 
plus experts to run the machines, people to do specific tasks - fitting, assembling, testing - all the way to packaging, shipping/receiving..

Tens of thousands is easy to drop.. Well over 100K+ for large/serious manufacturers..

I personally had 10s of thousands invested in my shops, and I outsourced machine..
My equipment was only the basic metal working fabrication equipment, a few welders, paint booths, etc..

When I worked at a few metal fab shops that were subcontracted by large companies to make their parts, 
those shops easily had hundreds of thousands if not well over $1m+

Granted we were building things like Ferris equipment, Scissor jacks, Forklifts, etc..

Hopefully that just gives a quick idea..

Sam -
Click to expand...


Running a very busy HVAC shop for 20+ years I do have a basic understanding of sales and manufacturing costs,. All the start up costs of a manufacturer are 'similar in a high end or a mid or even a low end pcp factory,,, aren't they..?
 
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acs,

You nailed it! Yup, just think standard start-up-costs involved.
Then pick a particular type of business they'd relate to. So in this case, a small / medium / large machine shop.

In reality, if you had the blueprints [and/or CAD files] needed for everything involved with a pca rifle,
most local machine shops could easily fabricate all of the parts needed [that had to be custom done]

That's how a lot of people put their own brands of things out.. Because they already have the means to..

I used to have a few other machine shops around my area, and some were more than happy to do custom jobs..
The problem is . . . cost effectiveness..

1 run for 1 part is expensive.. Raw materials, Setup time, run time, maintenance, etc...
The more parts produced, the cheaper everything becomes.. Raw materials, labor, etc..

Sam -

 
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There are a lot of factors that go into what a product costs, machining costs, materials costs, development costs, labor costs, marketing costs, QC costs, taxes, etc. I just want to touch on a couple things quickly not mentioned: 



Dealer/distributor markups - I can't speak to the airgun industry specifically, however the standard retail markup in the US and EU for most products is 40%. Running a retail outlet is expensive, and that is why on most products almost half the price you pay is for the retailer to take their cut. 



Precision/consistency - There is no ceiling when it comes to precision of manufacture, the level of quality assurance done, etc. When you're doing precision manufacturing, things get what is called "binned." This doesn't mean thrown away (sorry my UK friends), it means sorted into different bins for tolerances/performance. At the upper levels of performance some units flat out are going to be better than others due to factors which are essentially beyond your control. Barrels are a great example of this, where two of the otherwise identical barrel off the same equipment won't perform the same. So those barrels will often be binned into performance categories. I know RAW does this, BY HAND. At that point the price of the barrel blanks they buy (maybe 100$ wholesale? Hard to know exactly) may become less significant because if only 1 in three is a shooter and it takes one of their skilled tradesmen two hours to machine each blank, season it, and test shoot it you could be looking at an effective cost of 600$ per barrel even though the part technically should have cost less. Again it is why there is no ceiling to precision manufacturing, as you can always invest more and more for smaller and smaller returns as you approach the limits of a system. 



Opportunity cost - This is an economics concept, which roughly means what are you sacrificing by doing something. In the case of airgun manufacturing, you have to keep a variety of highly skilled engineers and tradesmen around who are skilled at high pressure pneumatics, as well as a bunch of high end CNC equipment. You, at the very least, would be well positioned to run a high end machine shop/job shop. So for you to decide to make airguns, you're sacrificing your opportunity to make other things instead essentially. Why does this matter? Because you can make really good money doing this, so you'll only make airguns if it is equally or more profitable to do so. Your machine tool operators aren't going to just show up and say "well normally we'd make 100$ an hour, but we're happy pulling down just 10$ an hour because we love airguns so much." It isn't going to happen, and you can't blame them. This, unsurprisingly, drives up costs. 



Regulatory burden - Finally, there are a huge number of complex social and economic factors involved, but essentially manufacturing things in the United States or Europe just costs more than say China. The factors here are too multifaceted to get into, but what I will say is that the one thing the US and EU have over China is (excluding electronics) high precision manufacture with fast turnaround times and accountability. Our sacked out tools head over to China, they have unbelievable warehouses full of them, and that is one part of why Chinese manufacture is so much cheaper. But when it comes to high end manufacturing, we still have the market cornered. So if you want that last little bit of accuracy, you're just a lot less likely to get it from a Chinese manufacturer. And that is what a lot of this comes down to in terms of perceived value. 



I hope that throws a little bit more light on things. 
 
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So, for those that know, whats it cost to manufacture a high to mid quality pcp. Exotic materials ?, vendor supplied parts, machining, assembly labor, qc, importing fees, etc,,,?. Of course R&D has to be factored in.

Just would like to know what I'm really getting for my $2500+ other then a quality high end brand Name. How many of these type guns do manufactures sell each year, is it hundreds, or 10's of thousands ? Is there a justifiable massive commissions markup, or do they just cost that much to make..?
Click to expand...



I doubt that some of the manufacturer will tell you the exact information but I am a stupid Russian who used to go on my own way not playing the "normal" business rules :)

Yes, if calculated the cost of the "magic material" one can think that the making PCP guns is piece a cake! Quite often I hear from some Russian commenters on my youtube channel or in forums something like that "He, dude, that piece of poop cannot cost more than 150 euro, the rest 1 000 euro is just the level of the Ed's greed!" And you know that I used to tried to tell them the figures but I failed out, those who has some idea in his brain curved is unable to listen to the arguments :) So, now I jsut agree, saying: "Yes, I am VERY VERY greedy! Now having knowing it you just have to live with it!". 



I have no experience with talking this subject with the foreigners, that is why this topic has caught me, I am an idealist and thinking that maybe people here are more patient to know the truth :) At least I see that the atmosphere in this forum is much better :)



The materials are nothing in the cost, you are right. When the price of the aluminum raised twice I just didn't care about it, as it is nothing to the cost of the gun. What is the cost?



1. Barrels -- the good quality barrel cost over 100 euro. Even the blank from LW cost from 40 euro. I don't buy blanks, they made barrels based on my specifications and I am getting them from LW "ready to be installed". https://www.lothar-walther.com/



2. Stock -- in fact good walnut stock cost. Just in case you can check the price for the stocks at ArtDecArt I work with here: https://guns.artdecart.com/ Note that they didn't updated site for a long time, as you can see there are only R3M stocks and the old Lelya. So, those prices were valid for 3-4 years ago. Price in rouble, now the exchange rate is 66 roubles per 1 USD. Yes, that is retail price, but I can tell you the price for me wasn't much less :) As you can see there are not R5M stocks, which is more expensive. The problem of the price in Russia is that all CNCn machines, tools etc are linked to euro or USD and when the roubles goes down the price in roulbes goes up!



3. The parts. As I told before CNC machines, tools, service and so on all are in USD or currency. Plust the customs fees, VAT etc. That makes the cost of the machine hour quite high, though I can say that the price of the CNC machine hour is not cheap at the West as well. That is the main cost of the gun.



4. Assembling. That cost money as well, I have over 12 people working only for assembling and testing guns. I try to pay them the good salary as I know exactly that only those who is paid fairly can work honestly. Just for example, the average salary of my workers at the assembling point is 3-5 times more than the average salary in the town. Indirect sign of the fact that my people value what they do is the fact that I have nobody leaving company for over 15 years. I lost just one person, who was with me from the beginning, he died few years ago. His wife works for me (some of you may know her, Tatyana, who is dealing with the parcels for you), his son is working for me, the wife of his son is working for me, his daughter is working for me and the husband of his daughter is working for me :) Sometimes I think that EDgun is their family company, not mine! :)



5. Taxation. I hate it. No, I HATE IT. but have to pay, probably much less that in some West countries but have to and that adds the cost price. There are some tricks in calculating taxes, they say us "Hey, what are you talking about, you pay only 6 % of the income!", Yep, we say, but you mention only the direct taxes, let's calculate the indirect taxes we pay, it is over 60 %, They say "That is demagogy!" But I think you know what I am talking about :) The same is in your countries more or less. 



6. The main problem -- the volume of the guns produced. CNC machines are very expensive and the process takes long time. There is possibility to decrease the cost price but all those mass production technology are EXPENSIVE! Very! Yes, one can save a lot of money to making some part by casting or with MIM technology but it cost a lot! For example the mold for the plastic stock for R5M cost me over 50 000 euro and I still have not it available, though I have paid it over one year ago. So I estimate that if one has the volume less than 20-30 thousand guns per year that is not reasonable to use those technology, the time of payback is long and buyers will require new guns in few years when the molds are just paid back and here we go again... :) That is why PCP are expensive, too much labor in them. 



7. Last but not least -- logistic and the dealers interest. Having entered that world I was naive and thought that manufacturer shold earn more than the seller. :) Really!? I had "luck" to have the proposal from one of the hugest retail company, selling guns over the world. I've read the contract and I sad to the owner of the company "I see that signing that I will be your total slave forever, I'd prefer to stay away of all your "sweet" proposals and will try to do my best myself". Besides now I know why they can make huge discounts and still be profitable :) That is why I am working with the people I know personally. Yes, sometimes I fail as well. For example Tony Rudenko stole about 50 000 euro from me, that was one of the reason I fired him. poop happens, but I prefer to move forward and that principle works well for last 15 years both in Russia and out of it.



Money -- I don't take credits from banks. I hate them as they behave like jackals, at least here in Russia. They don't care about you, about your business. the only thing they care is money. You can die, they will earn on it. The banks in Russia is something. The annual interest is 25 and over %. So, having taken 1 mln I have to pay them back in a year 1.25 min. Am I stupid? I prefer to go forward small steps rather than make a huge jump forward and then working 20 hours a day making them richer and being owing them for the rest of my life. F...k them! I don’t owe anybody! That is why I consider that the only bank I owe is my clients, that is why I cannot afford myself to make huge mistakes, that is why I have to care about quality, as that is the only way to stay afloat. That is my philosophy...

Hope I made it a little more clear at least regarding one of the PCP manufacturer :) I don't know the situation with the others, in fact.



With the best regards



Ed




 
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So, for those that know, whats it cost to manufacture a high to mid quality pcp. Exotic materials ?, vendor supplied parts, machining, assembly labor, qc, importing fees, etc,,,?. Of course R&D has to be factored in.

Just would like to know what I'm really getting for my $2500+ other then a quality high end brand Name. How many of these type guns do manufactures sell each year, is it hundreds, or 10's of thousands ? Is there a justifiable massive commissions markup, or do they just cost that much to make..?
Click to expand...



I doubt that some of the manufacturer will tell you the exact information but I am a stupid Russian who used to go on my own way not playing the "normal" business rules :)

Yes, if calculated the cost of the "magic material" one can think that the making PCP guns is piece a cake! Quite often I hear from some Russian commenters on my youtube channel or in forums something like that "He, dude, that piece of poop cannot cost more than 150 euro, the rest 1 000 euro is just the level of the Ed's greed!" And you know that I used to tried to tell them the figures but I failed out, those who has some idea in his brain curved is unable to listen to the arguments :) So, now I jsut agree, saying: "Yes, I am VERY VERY greedy! Now having knowing it you just have to live with it!". 



I have no experience with talking this subject with the foreigners, that is why this topic has caught me, I am an idealist and thinking that maybe people here are more patient to know the truth :) At least I see that the atmosphere in this forum is much better :)



The materials are nothing in the cost, you are right. When the price of the aluminum raised twice I just didn't care about it, as it is nothing to the cost of the gun. What is the cost?



1. Barrels -- the good quality barrel cost over 100 euro. Even the blank from LW cost from 40 euro. I don't buy blanks, they made barrels based on my specifications and I am getting them from LW "ready to be installed". https://www.lothar-walther.com/



2. Stock -- in fact good walnut stock cost. Just in case you can check the price for the stocks at ArtDecArt I work with here: https://guns.artdecart.com/ Note that they didn't updated site for a long time, as you can see there are only R3M stocks and the old Lelya. So, those prices were valid for 3-4 years ago. Price in rouble, now the exchange rate is 66 roubles per 1 USD. Yes, that is retail price, but I can tell you the price for me wasn't much less :) As you can see there are not R5M stocks, which is more expensive. The problem of the price in Russia is that all CNCn machines, tools etc are linked to euro or USD and when the roubles goes down the price in roulbes goes up!



3. The parts. As I told before CNC machines, tools, service and so on all are in USD or currency. Plust the customs fees, VAT etc. That makes the cost of the machine hour quite high, though I can say that the price of the CNC machine hour is not cheap at the West as well. That is the main cost of the gun.



4. Assembling. That cost money as well, I have over 12 people working only for assembling and testing guns. I try to pay them the good salary as I know exactly that only those who is paid fairly can work honestly. Just for example, the average salary of my workers at the assembling point is 3-5 times more than the average salary in the town. Indirect sign of the fact that my people value what they do is the fact that I have nobody leaving company for over 15 years. I lost just one person, who was with me from the beginning, he died few years ago. His wife works for me (some of you may know her, Tatyana, who is dealing with the parcels for you), his son is working for me, the wife of his son is working for me, his daughter is working for me and the husband of his daughter is working for me :) Sometimes I think that EDgun is their family company, not mine! :)



5. Taxation. I hate it. No, I HATE IT. but have to pay, probably much less that in some West countries but have to and that adds the cost price. There are some tricks in calculating taxes, they say us "Hey, what are you talking about, you pay only 6 % of the income!", Yep, we say, but you mention only the direct taxes, let's calculate the indirect taxes we pay, it is over 60 %, They say "That is demagogy!" But I think you know what I am talking about :) The same is in your countries more or less. 



6. The main problem -- the volume of the guns produced. CNC machines are very expensive and the process takes long time. There is possibility to decrease the cost price but all those mass production technology are EXPENSIVE! Very! Yes, one can save a lot of money to making some part by casting or with MIM technology but it cost a lot! For example the mold for the plastic stock for R5M cost me over 50 000 euro and I still have not it available, though I have paid it over one year ago. So I estimate that if one has the volume less than 20-30 thousand guns per year that is not reasonable to use those technology, the time of payback is long and buyers will require new guns in few years when the molds are just paid back and here we go again... :) That is why PCP are expensive, too much labor in them. 



7. Last but not least -- logistic and the dealers interest. Having entered that world I was naive and thought that manufacturer shold earn more than the seller. :) Really!? I had "luck" to have the proposal from one of the hugest retail company, selling guns over the world. I've read the contract and I sad to the owner of the company "I see that signing that I will be your total slave forever, I'd prefer to stay away of all your "sweet" proposals and will try to do my best myself". Besides now I know why they can make huge discounts and still be profitable :) That is why I am working with the people I know personally. Yes, sometimes I fail as well. For example Tony Rudenko stole about 50 000 euro from me, that was one of the reason I fired him. poop happens, but I prefer to move forward and that principle works well for last 15 years both in Russia and out of it.



Money -- I don't take credits from banks. I hate them as they behave like jackals, at least here in Russia. They don't care about you, about your business. the only thing they care is money. You can die, they will earn on it. The banks in Russia is something. The annual interest is 25 and over %. So, having taken 1 mln I have to pay them back in a year 1.25 min. Am I stupid? I prefer to go forward small steps rather than make a huge jump forward and then working 20 hours a day making them richer and being owing them for the rest of my life. F...k them! I don’t owe anybody! That is why I consider that the only bank I owe is my clients, that is why I cannot afford myself to make huge mistakes, that is why I have to care about quality, as that is the only way to stay afloat. That is my philosophy...

Hope I made it a little more clear at least regarding one of the PCP manufacturer :) I don't know the situation with the others, in fact.



With the best regards



Ed



Click to expand...


Great reply, thank you. Think some Russian collusion is in my future, maybe the r5m type of collusion.
 
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Ed I enjoyed your commentary greatly and have desired one of your guns for a long time. Even was in talks with Brian a couple of years ago to add them to my stock but it fell through unfortunately or I would have probably sold your guns in the USA also. That is all in the past now unfortunately. Rugged, Reliable and Powerful are my everyday expectations for any product line.
 
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Ed, always appreciate your commentary, honesty, and transparency. I think you're a stand up guy...here is my simple 2 cents on high end rifles, your business *kind of* falls outside of this category and are not subject entirely to my opinion/business logic. Custom / limited production rifles are not fair to compare to mass produced or highly produced rifles in the same market.



I think its only right to both a company itself, and the customer, for said company to find the most economical cost of each individual piece that makes a pcp rifle what it is. If that means out sourcing CNC work/fabrication of parts to China, barrel work to Germany, and assembly to your native Country, than I think that is best...why make both yourself and your customer pay a higher cost of equal material? Its not practical or economical...and I think very few manufacturers take this approach...and the ones that DO and offer cheaper 300-600$ air rifles ARE following my logic of finding the most economically priced materials/fabrications...economical is not synonymous or doesn't translate to 'the cheapest' so no quality is lost in doing so...only the benefit of offering cheaper goods to customers in an already broken economy.



There really is no argument when one can buy a 300-600$ air gun that has every single feature a 2000$ variant has, other than mark up or lack luster business logic somewhere that is imposing much higher costs to both the company and the customer. 



-Matt


 
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I'll add a few thoughts on main components of a pcp, and their material costs...

**For a 100% custom, in house made pcp, the above does NOT apply...this is for high/mass production rifles.


Air tube / Pressure vessel .... simple calculations available online to obtain 3.5:1 SF or more, very low cost material (10-20$ per tube aluminum, 40-80 for titanium....1 hr cnc time max, bottled guns same price as titanium tube)

Barrels - Readily available, from already renowned manufacturers such as Lothar Walthar, CZ, and a few companies in China I am unsure the name of. 50-80$ material cost..

Trigger - 2 stage triggers are not rocket science or complex, some manufacturers over design them and make them fairly complicated, a drop sear is very easy to design and implement. Cost is extremely low and all the data (blueprints) are out there, so to find one that works with your rifles form factor is very simple, takes little r&d and little cost...trigger technology is not advancing crazily..its been the same for awhile....20$ would be more than enough to cover any costs...

Stock - Tons of access to these being mass produced. 50-100$ for wood, 25-50$ for synthetics...

Breach - very basic, much like fill tube / internal valve / gauge blocks, gauge, hammer, spring, ect...all adding up in cost but for very little...generally you pay a premium for high end rifle design efforts, some justified some not...but these dimensions and pieces are very basic and don't require thorough thought, again not rocket science...

Regulators - Accessible through established manufacturers for 40$-80$...can be made in house for much less, very simple designs, but if out sourcing CNC/fab work might as well outsource these as well.

So the most expensive parts are generally your barrel and stock, and if included a regulator..ideally at a combined total of 100$ or 140~ if regulated if you cut the right deals...add in the rest and you're under 210$ in total cost, more if you strike the right deals with the right manufacturers....the Nova Vista Liberty PCP air rifle would NOT come close to being possible if the above figures weren't even close to accurate approximations...but alas, they are...you could double the cost of this particular rifle and I would still be impressed with its features/cost...because nothing on the market is really comparing to it at that price point...I'd personally be intimidated by this rifle @ its price if I were an air rifle manufacturer right now...I'd be rushing to find a means to a more economical end product. But thats just me, luckily I am not nor do I ever plan to be in this particular market, merely an hobbyist, observer and theorist. I am thrilled there are new coming 'entry level' priced air rifles that are seriously putting up a fight with 'top tier' air rifles at 1/6th the cost...a pcp and its components are VERY simple at their core..a hammer smacking a valve that releases a specific mass of air that propels a projectile down the barrel. No reason a concoction that functions as such should vary in cost by 500-600%....hurts my brain to ponder how we live in such a world.



**For a 100% custom, in house made pcp, the above does NOT apply...this is for high/mass production rifles.



-Matt
 
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ED,That was a great write-up...I think a lot of people pay for "Pride of ownership"or better "Bragging rights"..FACT , I know it,Just a couple of days ago a question was asked ,something like this," which PCP surprised you.".I'd say over 90% of the replies were from guys that paid over $1200 for their rifles...not me,what the surprises me is how fooking good my my $200 and $ 300 PCP shoot....Yes,I got great deals on them and sure I would rather have a $1200 PCP,butt really,how much better is it??I kinda want to belong to a certain group,butt I am too mixed up.LOL.
 
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I find it interesting when someone comes up with the cost estimate based on material cost, estimated machine and labor cost. If there was so much margins in building air rifles then new manufacturers would come online and make tons of money for competing putting the rip-off artist out of business. There is the law of diminishing returns of course in a $500 gun will do probably 80% of what a $2,000 gun will do. But if you need that last 20% you have to pay. A person who thinks they can make air rifles so great and inexpensive should invest their own money and get out there and make a killing.
 
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