Made in USA? No products we like are mostly USA made, so what!
- Thread starter Therealld
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Jobs going offshore is no longer just about cheap labor. The wage disparity between home and abroad is shrinking. Its about the total cost of doing business and a US tax code that drives business away.
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I agree with lots of your post, yet still, my thought was to encourage development and manufacture of airguns here in our own country, not hypocritically bash a foreign country, often using the very APPLE product thats full of stuff made in said country!
Dennis Quackenbush, used to make decent, simple guns in his own shop, selling a handful every year … dunno if he still does or not.
I started up a thread on a Forum operated by Jim Maccari way back about building a competitive Field Target rifle for our country instead of buying foriegn-made stuff, and I followed through by designing and making a handful of guns to prove they could win (and they did win). I helped my friend Tim McMurray get into producing a version of that gun (I redesigned it for easier manufacture), and he has built several hundred of them over nearly two decades.
I met the guy that owns Airforce guns, when he was starting up and I even tested a pre-production prototype and gave useful feedback. He has been a major force in the American airgun scene for some while now.
Martin of RAW Airguns left UK because of increasingly tough export issues etc at home, yet he knew and loved Theoben Rapids so he started making an improved version in Tennessee.
And Mike N, the guy that build the Thomas? He’s another guy that builds a really decent gun on his own. These guys PROVE the “American Way” can still work.
Sure, most readers would want guns from these guys, but many don’t like the cost …. Yet are they REALLY so high compared to full-boat FX Rapids, Daystate XXXX-Wolfs, FWB FT models, and some other high end airguns?
I’ll add this … having been to UK and many European countries … many, if not most airgunners there would gladly spend more for airguns made “at home” if they can.
LD
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And before this gets locked, for me, it's more about the quality depending on the country it's produced in. The accessories market is a good example...bipods, clones from countries where the labor/raw cost is cheapest vs bipods made in the US. Big difference but price wins a lot of the time. Personally, I buy accutac and accushot atlas's. I enjoy the better fit and finish, and to me the 10x cost is worth it.
Other accessories...name me a mass produced, popular, retail product that is made in the US and not in China. There's not that many. Moderators...TKO, Neil (but he's custom)...that's about what comes to mind. There are some from our folks across the atlantic that make a HQ product as well.
Just the nature of the beast these days...and that's all I'll say to try and keep from going directly political
Other accessories...name me a mass produced, popular, retail product that is made in the US and not in China. There's not that many. Moderators...TKO, Neil (but he's custom)...that's about what comes to mind. There are some from our folks across the atlantic that make a HQ product as well.
Just the nature of the beast these days...and that's all I'll say to try and keep from going directly political
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Most posts here blame labor cost, however there are costs unseen that also add to AMERICAN made products of which I try to buy every time if at all possible.
There are many laws/rules/regulations that enter into the cost for companies to do business in the USA. A prime example is the EPA. The US among other nations are attempting to mitigate world issues such as air pollution, water pollution and the like. This all cost money to accomplish. US companies must foot the bill and pass that cost onto consumers. Do you think that China pays any attention to pollution laws? I seriously doubt it. Have you seen pictures of the air quality there? WOW, it ain't good!
So, to me, every time a dollar is spent for a Chinese product is another dollar NOT helping the earth in general. I'm not buying unless there are no other options.
mike
There are many laws/rules/regulations that enter into the cost for companies to do business in the USA. A prime example is the EPA. The US among other nations are attempting to mitigate world issues such as air pollution, water pollution and the like. This all cost money to accomplish. US companies must foot the bill and pass that cost onto consumers. Do you think that China pays any attention to pollution laws? I seriously doubt it. Have you seen pictures of the air quality there? WOW, it ain't good!
So, to me, every time a dollar is spent for a Chinese product is another dollar NOT helping the earth in general. I'm not buying unless there are no other options.
mike
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Aman to that! US companies simply aren't interested in making innovative AMERICAN products any more besides Tela. All the greedy corporate CEO just want to sell out everyone else and get their millions. I wouldn't call china evil because they compete fair and square, did they hold a gun to all these CEOs to transfer all the technical details/know how to them? NO! They willingly sold it to them for EASY money. Complaining China doesn't play fair is openly admitting we are losers because unfair is the losers rally cry! Let's be honest, when did US or anyone for that matter ever play fair?
Back to airgun, when was the last time Airforce and RAW changed/updated anything? Ops, forgot RAW just updated their name but can't really call that innovation.
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EXACTLY! However they are paying for it with their health, just like we did not even that long ago. We went through the same thing, it wasn't for the problem got so bad no one would of changed here either. The amount of toxic crap we dumped into the soil and ocean is mind blowing. Now we shifted that crap to China but China now is working on improving the environment so the toxic stuff goes to other poorer countries. This will continue until we all die one way or another. Only way to slow it down is stop buying cheap stuff as much as we can, it's damn hard though. Only wished there are more Elon Musk in this world, building mind blowingly cutting edge stuff right here in the US and strive for sustainability while doing so.
The real problem is don't really have any options in the airgun world for anything made in the US. The only thing made in US I have for airguns are the few OG crosman guns and surplus SCBA tanks. Newer crosman guns are all made in Turkey, no interest in those at all either. I honestly have no desire to buy an Airforce or RAW, how long can they survive on just 1 model?
I can only hope one day a US airgun maker will rise to the challenge and be smart and innovative just like Elon Musk.........who was born in south africa.
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Manufacturing was driven offshore simply by greed. Everybody wants union wages while they shop at Walmart. You could have nice things manufactured at home but you must pay more for them. By you paying more the people doing the manufacturing are able to make a profit, pay their employees a good wage similar to yours and be good corporate/community members. It's not rocket science.
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LD, guess I should proofread my own posts (that was corrected to Xenophobic). Absolutely no offense meant to any gay airgun manufacturers!
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It’s the same in the UK good English Company’s wanting to produce good products at home but the Labour rates rental fuel etc force them to out source to China.
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I doubt FX pay slave wages in Sweden while still sell products that are cheaper. It’s easy to blame others for your own downfall.
Evolve/innovate or die! Many….make that majority chose the later.
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How lucky are we that we can be on a forum for air guns complaining about how much it costs to buy good parts for our hobby. I was quite surprised to find out that my local Air gun shop charges $180.00 per hour to install parts or tune guns that are way overpriced to begin with. That's Lawyer money. If you can afford to participate in any kind of hobby, count your blessings, and maybe try to help those not as lucky as you and I every once in awhile.
As far as made in America, that's long gone. At some level, practically everything has a foreign connection in some way, because the one percent with all the money only cares about the bottom line. I don't know why America feels like we should just be left alone to flourish as a nation, and the rest of the world should just bow down to our domination. As a country, there is a target on our back and we are to busy fighting amongst ourselves, a the pleasure of our enemies, to be able to stop our descent.
For me, I've pretty much had enough. It's time for all the Gen X&Z whiners, who complain about how bad all those before them have destroyed everything, to get off THEIR butts and actually do something about it. A survey of people under 30, said they would rather chop off a finger than give up their cell phone, or be paid at least $5,000,000 to do so.
Kloe Kardashian has 250,000,000 (right, millions), followers on Facebook. That's screwed up!!!!
As far as made in America, that's long gone. At some level, practically everything has a foreign connection in some way, because the one percent with all the money only cares about the bottom line. I don't know why America feels like we should just be left alone to flourish as a nation, and the rest of the world should just bow down to our domination. As a country, there is a target on our back and we are to busy fighting amongst ourselves, a the pleasure of our enemies, to be able to stop our descent.
For me, I've pretty much had enough. It's time for all the Gen X&Z whiners, who complain about how bad all those before them have destroyed everything, to get off THEIR butts and actually do something about it. A survey of people under 30, said they would rather chop off a finger than give up their cell phone, or be paid at least $5,000,000 to do so.
Kloe Kardashian has 250,000,000 (right, millions), followers on Facebook. That's screwed up!!!!
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So, the whole world wants everything made in China and then we blame all the pollution on them. If the corporate scum wanted to, they could force China to do better, but that might cost them money, so not happening. The power doesn't care one bit. The Kennedy family owns coal, (NACCO). That poison will be around forever, cause that's where the power is. The power required to operate Bitcoin is staggering by any measure. The answer from them is we will fix that later. ????sure you will.
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In my opinion, the migration of manufacturing going offshore was not simply driven by greed. It was often a matter of survival. I spent most of my life working for a company in the electronic component manufacturing industry. This is a very competitive industry and if your competition goes offshore to reduce their manufacturing cost, you must do the same if you wish to remain in business. In this industry everyone wants the lowest possible price and you can't charge more for quality. In addition to this, some of the largest electronic component customers like automotive demand continuous cost reduction each year. A difficult goal to meet when material costs keep rising.
I believe that the loss of manufacturing in this country was inevitable. The root cause was "Globalism". We can blame China, Mexico and others for stealing American jobs, but global trade and unequal wealth in the world is the cause. I don't know the solution. Myself, I prefer to buy American made whenever possible and not give my money to China.
All of this is just my humble opinion.
I believe that the loss of manufacturing in this country was inevitable. The root cause was "Globalism". We can blame China, Mexico and others for stealing American jobs, but global trade and unequal wealth in the world is the cause. I don't know the solution. Myself, I prefer to buy American made whenever possible and not give my money to China.
All of this is just my humble opinion.
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Respectfully, I disagree, the initial catalyst was greed. There had to be a start point. I don't know exactly when that was, but somebody figured out how to do it, and were able to get whatever approval they needed. Once the gates were open is when it became survival. But, rather than stay and fight it, too many jumped on the bandwagon for the profits, American workers be damned !!!! For the oldest free society in the history of the world, we sure seem to be short sighted. Going to relax and practice some 25 M now. Good day, while we still have them !
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Richard; Nixon made Henry Kissinger Sec. of State (1973). Henry Kissinger decided that the best way to deal with the USSR was to sidle up to CCP, so we did. It was a good move strategically but CCP understood the strategy of war better than this country, even after WWII. Sun Tzu really was a genius, far ahead of his time.
China never forgot what the USA and UK did to them during the Opium Wars which led to the Boxer Rebellion. Japan rolled over them during the conflicts of the early 1900's and occupied and subsequently raped both China and Korea for about half a century. Along comes WWII and finally the Korean conflict and that area stabilized (more or less). But they never forgot and were not going to let themselves be exploited again. Rather they had a plan, it was a 50 year plan. That plan is right on schedule (2023).
We make plans for ten years down the road and the next executive which is elected from the other party rips that plan down and establishes another. It is the best way to make sure that government doesn't encroach too far before the ship is righted. It works just fine when the citizens are loyal to and focused upon the well being of the Republic. When they aren't well things tend to fail.
The smartest thing we could have done, strategically, would have been to snuggle up real close to Russia as soon as the USSR crumbled, and do everything we could to usher in a new era of freedom and civil rights in that country. That would have given us the power we needed to hold the up and coming super power (China) at bay. But... Big Oil saw an opportunity in Russia and literally stole the oil rights in that country during the confusion. That led to Putin being put back in place because he RIGHTLY took back the oil rights for his chronies (in the name of his people). We still could have managed it if we had snuggled up to Russia after 9/11 but we got distracted with Afghanistan and getting oil rights in Iraq... Never did snuggle up to Russia. EVEN THEN we could have probably pulled the rabbit out of the hat in 2016 if we had been willing to make overtures to Russia when Trump took office ... but ... well ... that would drag me into politics and I won't go there. That truth will publish itself over the next year, anyway.
So we are here, now. The business and technology magnates which run this country and the rest of the first world saw a profit in building out a GLOBAL system of business. Push labor off over into this corner of the world and science and tech over into that part ... so on. Build out a one world government and we can make ourselves even more wealthy...
Only one problem remains.
There are too many people.
CCP appears to be actively engaged in solving that problem.
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Aren't there enough POLITICAL forums for strictly political posts like yours? I read and post about a favorite hobby of mine, if I want political tripe, and can watch it on TV nearly 24/7.
Though retired, I got to “new-to-me” American made air rifles in the last week, and I’m having a ball testing them!
LD
Though retired, I got to “new-to-me” American made air rifles in the last week, and I’m having a ball testing them!
LD
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I just TRADED a totally American made air rifle (Custom USFT) for a couple nearly totally American-made air rifles. The JSAR guns had imported CF tanks, butnotherwise appear to be made on our soil. Thought I’d give the new bigger bore stuff a whirl. I love to trade, and being on a pension, it helps keep the budget in line.
LD
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Don't whine about politics in a thread where you started out talking politics in the first post.
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Edit: post was too harsh and made assumptions about the o p which may not have been Fair. I have trimmed it.
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Maybe a better subject line would have been, "I hate China bashing and you are a hypocrite if you do it." clearly THAT is what this thread is about, don't you think?
Maybe you just did not realize that was what you were doing?
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