Because everyone wants smaller groups and the term "well" is subjective.
Maybe he was trying to achieve South African free fx airgun reviewer accuracy where you hit a tiny bird at 200+ meters every time in a cross wind.
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FX Lock this thread please- Discussed with Fredrik, there is no evidence of POI shift in FX barrel liner system
- Thread starter mubhaur
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Maybe he was trying to achieve South African free fx airgun reviewer accuracy where you hit a tiny bird at 200+ meters every time in a cross wind.
So over the years I’ve owned a couple fx gun, impact and wildcat.
I haven owned any of the newer offerings from FX…so who knows. Might be different.
I’m my opinion, the issue is more complex than poi shift from the liners.
I recall any adjustment to the shroud/moderator resulting in a POI shift, or slightly rotating the liner inside the housing. There’s even ppl recommending “indexing” the liner in the housing. Kinda weird if u think about it.
Worse case scenario I recall pulling the barrel on an impact and after reinstalling it…seeing a 7” left/right poi shift @ 50y. If the barrel can move that far physically…there’s no way u will tell me the gun wouldn’t poi shift over time.
So I think it’s an overall platform design issue…and fx might be trying to address it with new offerings.
I haven owned any of the newer offerings from FX…so who knows. Might be different.
I’m my opinion, the issue is more complex than poi shift from the liners.
I recall any adjustment to the shroud/moderator resulting in a POI shift, or slightly rotating the liner inside the housing. There’s even ppl recommending “indexing” the liner in the housing. Kinda weird if u think about it.
Worse case scenario I recall pulling the barrel on an impact and after reinstalling it…seeing a 7” left/right poi shift @ 50y. If the barrel can move that far physically…there’s no way u will tell me the gun wouldn’t poi shift over time.
So I think it’s an overall platform design issue…and fx might be trying to address it with new offerings.
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I replaced a standard 22 liner from a factory compact Wildcat barrel kit with a heavy liner. I had previously done this with a .30 and it was a breeze. However, when I pulled out the original .22 liner, it came out with several pieces of oring(s). The orings around the liner that contact the outer barrel tube were intact and it was clear that the oring pieces were of smaller diameter. Looking at the schematic, I noticed that the 22 (but not the 30) has orings supporting the liner in the jam nut and the piece between the TP and the main barrel tube. The pieces had come from the TP end and I had pulled the liner out with the jam nut attached. I then gently pulled off the jam nut and more pieces fell out from there.
Naturally, I ordered some new orings, lubed them up and attempted to install the new heavy liner. It took 4 attempts just to push in the liner to both the TP end piece and jam nut without breaking one. That was without trying to screw anything into the connecting tube, which surely would introduce more stress. Even when I got the 3 pieces together, I found that the liner could wiggle and change angle in the TP attachment or jam nut. As someone mentioned earlier, I ended up with little confidence in using those orings and instead wrapped the ends of the liner with Teflon tape to get a tight fit into both pieces. I did however use one oring at the end of the jam nut to act as a buffer when the nut is tightened to avoid compressing the liner. The resulting gun is doing very well with this hack. It also got a CF sleeve bonded to the liner.
This experience leaves me with a number of questions:
1. Why are FX using those orings in the 22 but not the 30 (no idea about the 25)? Maybe lack of space in the 30?, but, if the 30 works just fine without them, why are they in the 22?
2. How many 22 barrels come off the production line with those 1mm orings intact after twisting the parts together?
3. How do those 1mm orings hold up when slugs are shot at up to 75fpe.
4. Even when intact do those orings prevent the liner from moving off axis during a shot.
5. Whats the point of having a CF liner sleeve replacing orings around the liner if there are other orings allowing movement at the ends of the liner?
I guess overall, while these liners seem to be capable of shooting both pellets and slugs really well, there’s an awful lot of moving parts and different materials that need to jive. Which has the most orings - a 22 FX barrel kit or two whole Marauders?
Naturally, I ordered some new orings, lubed them up and attempted to install the new heavy liner. It took 4 attempts just to push in the liner to both the TP end piece and jam nut without breaking one. That was without trying to screw anything into the connecting tube, which surely would introduce more stress. Even when I got the 3 pieces together, I found that the liner could wiggle and change angle in the TP attachment or jam nut. As someone mentioned earlier, I ended up with little confidence in using those orings and instead wrapped the ends of the liner with Teflon tape to get a tight fit into both pieces. I did however use one oring at the end of the jam nut to act as a buffer when the nut is tightened to avoid compressing the liner. The resulting gun is doing very well with this hack. It also got a CF sleeve bonded to the liner.
This experience leaves me with a number of questions:
1. Why are FX using those orings in the 22 but not the 30 (no idea about the 25)? Maybe lack of space in the 30?, but, if the 30 works just fine without them, why are they in the 22?
2. How many 22 barrels come off the production line with those 1mm orings intact after twisting the parts together?
3. How do those 1mm orings hold up when slugs are shot at up to 75fpe.
4. Even when intact do those orings prevent the liner from moving off axis during a shot.
5. Whats the point of having a CF liner sleeve replacing orings around the liner if there are other orings allowing movement at the ends of the liner?
I guess overall, while these liners seem to be capable of shooting both pellets and slugs really well, there’s an awful lot of moving parts and different materials that need to jive. Which has the most orings - a 22 FX barrel kit or two whole Marauders?
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I think most people would prefer a proper hammer forged barrel that's rigid enough to support itself and a shroud without all the complications.
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Couldn‘t have said it any better myself. Some guns have more Achilles heels than others. A good tank of a PCP is boring to probably a large percentage of us. We own them, we like them, but we don’t shoot them as much as the gun we are trying to conquer. This happens even with cheap PCP’s. There are a ton of guys with cheap PCP’s burning through projectiles and parts trying to get them to behave and meet whatever standards they have. Some of us are doing it with Impacts or a Maverick. Yes, a dummy can buy an Impact, and plenty have, then go on a topic starting rampage and make the gun look bad when it’s not. The problem is some of those same type of guys are buying Taipans, Crickets or others and you never hear a word about them. So yes, there is something negative about the beloved Impact. What makes it cool also comes with multiple Achilles heels.
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My experiance is that all my guns have some POI change from day to day, regarding them being FX, taipan, or AGT. The main reason for me is because I shoot outdoors. On my airguns, every unoticable litle wind will move the POI. No day will have axactly the same wind conditions. I would guess 90-95 persentage of all airgunners shoot outside just as me. So to me it sound strange anyone have guns with no POI change, shooting outdoors. It also leads me to think how do they actually manage to measure it correctly in an outdoor enviroment, from one day to another?
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Agreed, it’s difficult to suss out a POI shift, confidently separate from wind, unless it’s a dramatic POI shift.
For small shifts, some combination of the following is helpful:
For small shifts, some combination of the following is helpful:
- Shoot at short distance
- Set out wind flags
- Resist the temptation to fix a perceived POI shift, and instead evaluate it over the course of several shooting sessions to establish confidence
- Deliberately bump the shroud or barrel and see if the POI moves
- Get a Thomas
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I didn't think we were talking about wind drift, but the stability of the parts making up the barrel assembly.
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I would shoot my dreamline compact in the basement and could induce poi shifts just by tapping the muzzle end in different directions. Was trying to figure out why just removing the gun from the case was moving the poi. Removed the orings on the ends of the shroud and now it tightens up nicely with less shift.
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No need in LOCKING this thread .... Real life users giving real life experience is at the heart of readership and why many visit AG forums in the first place.
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Another thought is what if the barrel and transfer port were designed with little notches on the the ends so they line up like a gear. Then the barrel could be slowly rotated and locked into place where you want it without the worry of it rotating slightly as you tighten the barrel nut and the rest of the system down.
This leads me to another thought on the topic too regarding point of aim shift. How many people have taken there shroud off to find the barrel nut has loosened? How many have found that maybe the barrel had rotated slightly due to this and maybe caused their point of aim to shift?
The barrels are right hand twist after all and there is friction to some level placing torque on the barrel, although probably higher with slugs. There is also small vibrations when shot that loosen things as well as changes in temperature and differing expansion rates of the metals.
If FX were to test the liner solo, there probably wouldn't be the changes in point of aim; however as a system, I think plenty of members have shown there is some crediblity and reason behind it.
Just some thoughts. Carry on.
This leads me to another thought on the topic too regarding point of aim shift. How many people have taken there shroud off to find the barrel nut has loosened? How many have found that maybe the barrel had rotated slightly due to this and maybe caused their point of aim to shift?
The barrels are right hand twist after all and there is friction to some level placing torque on the barrel, although probably higher with slugs. There is also small vibrations when shot that loosen things as well as changes in temperature and differing expansion rates of the metals.
If FX were to test the liner solo, there probably wouldn't be the changes in point of aim; however as a system, I think plenty of members have shown there is some crediblity and reason behind it.
Just some thoughts. Carry on.
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I haven't worked on the newest barrel assembly but in the original design you couldn't tighten the nut without putting the barrel liner under compression which makes it wobble like a wet noodle and hurts accuracy. If a barrel isn't rigid on it's own then tension will improve it while compression makes it worse.
In the original design the best you could do is have the nut just touch the liner.
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To be fair, I my first gen crown did have POI shift. The liner was obviously bad, as the barrel fouled up really fast, and the moderator had flakes of lead dropping out. That did happen during the same shooting session on the bench, 25 meters on a relative calm day. It was the first generation smooth twist-x liner. My other FX guns seems not to have that issue, they all have later produced liners. For all I know the first production runs off liners may had some bad ones? A gun with faulty parts will always have issues no matter the brand. FX sells many thousand guns. The more guns you sell, the probabillity of more bad ones hitting the market will probably be there, in comparison to a company selling 5 times less guns. A company not mass produsing theire products in big quantities might also have more time to test theire guns? The likely hood of more negative posts on forums will probably also happen, as many seek advise, when they have troubles with theire guns. Owners with guns working as they should, does not need to post about it. Just statistics manifesting itself in forums.
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This discussion somehow reminds me off when tesla cars had a reputation of starting a fire. I personally do not know if tesla cars burn more than other eletric vehicles, but since there is so many of them sold across the world, the likely hood of it being a tesla, is probably bigger than a company selling less cars
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I don't know of any other company selling barrel assemblies with a thin liner and so many other parts so that wouldn't be an accurate comparison.This discussion somehow reminds me off when tesla cars had a reputation of starting a fire. I personally do not know if tesla cars burn more than other eletric vehicles, but since there is so many of them sold across the world, the likely hood of it being a tesla, is probably bigger than a company selling less cars
There are so many variables in this design that cause the problems I believe FX would be far better off sourcing a high quality 1 piece barrel to replace them.
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What FX has in common with tesla is that they may choose to do things theire own way. Theire products can be quiet unique
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I agree but that is a different discussion.What FX has in common with tesla is that they may choose to do things theire own way. Theire products can be quiet unique
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"Lock this thread..."
As if any member has the right to make bold and contentious claims and then try to force the mods into locking it down so nobody else can provide thoughts or rebuttal. That's what we call free speech here, buddy.
As if any member has the right to make bold and contentious claims and then try to force the mods into locking it down so nobody else can provide thoughts or rebuttal. That's what we call free speech here, buddy.
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If folks had no comment, post would age itself out and go away on its own .... that appears to be NOT happening.
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