This is my second year of Squirrel hunting with an air rifle. I shoot FT competitively and do fair at that, also I have squirrel hunted with PB all my life. I totally understand the need for well placed shots and can make them and ect. so don't FRY me on the ethical stuff. Last year I used a Hatsan Sniper 125 Vortex in .22 it did okay???? It shot 14.3 CHPH's best @ 895 fps, but I felt like something else could do better. This year I bought a Gamo Coyote in 177, the gun is very accurate, quick follow up's with the magazine feed, shoots H&N Barracuda's great at 865 fps average. I'm a little disappointed in the on game performance of the 177 thus far. Would a more aggressive/heavier pellet give a more satisfactory performance than the plain Barracuda's? I'm Thinking "nooooo" but I've been wrong lots of times before. What's your thoughts here? Yes, I'm Looking at options(BTW I've got a shoebox and Guppy tank)I really love the thoughts of the Woods Walker but doubt I'm really bettering my self ??? A 25mrod would be great but not in the budget at the moment.
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Little Dissappointed
- Thread starter 62hotrod
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My opinion is 177 is reserved for head shots only past 40 yards which can be difficult to pull off on a twitchy squirrel, and yes they most definitely can be killed farther out but at a risk of wounding. 22 is better but the 25 is best, my wildcat cat drops squuirels just like my ruger 10/22 out to 75 or 80 which is probably my longest shot on one. But I think the energy at the muzzle of a 177 is close to a 25 at 100. So to conclude just keep in mind a poor shot with a 22 rim fire leads to a wounded squirrel so shot placement is key to a clean kill with lesser powered guns.
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I've agree .25 would be the most flexible of choices, but i've dropped squirrels and rabbits out to 85 yards and pigeons out to 113 yards with a .22 but on the squirrels i only take head shots. Have ended mis judging ranges and come up with couple of body shots. But all ended up good kills sometimes being lucky is enough.
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My personal observation is my .22 does not do the "damage" my .25 does to a squirrel. When I say "damage" I really mean the ability to provide a quick kill. I have noticed on non head shots (heart lung shots) the .22 does give the squirrel the ability to make a few steps. With the .25, heart lung shots have stopped them in their tracks every time. Minimum damage to the meat as well. I really prefer a squirrel be hit with the air gun instead of a powder burner since there is no gelling of the meat and no loss due to ruined meat. My 2 cents.
Personal opinion-- The .25 Benjamin Marauder is about as good of a gun as you can buy for the money. I will never part with mine and I do own guns that are triple the price of the Marauder .25.
step up to the .25 and the follow up shots will be a thing of the past.
Personal opinion-- The .25 Benjamin Marauder is about as good of a gun as you can buy for the money. I will never part with mine and I do own guns that are triple the price of the Marauder .25.
step up to the .25 and the follow up shots will be a thing of the past.
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As a 25 Marauder owner I have to agree with the others. About all you can do is maybe tune for as high a velocity with the best accuracy. You might be able to get up to 950 and that would add to energy on target. Back when Ted made videos he made one comparing the 22 vrs. 25 on squirrels. It really showed the massive increase in killing power the 25 has over the 22. He also made a vid on comparing shooting between US and UK (sub 12 ft.lb.). Problem is you have given yourself a big handicap by going with a 177. My primary use is pesting large Fox Squirrels. They are really tough customers so I almost always go for head shots. I am considering stepping up to a Hatsan BT65 that can push 25 JSB at 950+ with a decent shot count. I really like the Wildcat shot count but not the price and the "me too" stigma of going that way.
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Bigger caliber= Bigger holes!! I prefer the .25 cal for multiple reasons, but bigger calibers make bigger holes and that means more damage and less run offs. Even when power is equal between a .22 and .25, the .25 does a better job.
I have a 48fpe .22 and a 52fpe .25. The .25 wins. I have a 70fpe .25 and a 73fpe .30. The .30 wins!! The larger diameter is the difference!!
I have a 48fpe .22 and a 52fpe .25. The .25 wins. I have a 70fpe .25 and a 73fpe .30. The .30 wins!! The larger diameter is the difference!!
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For years and years I used .177 because you could get close to 800 fps and at that speed, I had a flat shooters (FWB124, R1). Later on air gun manufactures built more and more powerful guns, of which I have (Crow magnum, R90), with those I was able to get in the 800fps range and step up to .22 caliber.
Back in the day I shot rabbits, starlings, pigeons etc with my .177, it buzzed through them, but it did not smash them. I feel my .22 caliber guns in the 800+fps area do that. I hunt rabbit, ground squirrel, starling, that type of game and for me, the .22 is just fine.
A 50 yd shot is a pretty long one, although I shoot anywhere between 30-60 yds (60yds is a long shot for me) I'm just getting back into air gunning after a few years off so I still am experimenting with at what range should I sight in ... I'm thinking 40 yds with the power of my gas ram guns that should be just fine.
I have a Hatsan 95 Vortex and a 125 Vortex in .22 and at the speed they shoot, I can't imaging me needing more power with the game I go after, but that is me, lots of guys are shooting some really powerful guns that puts it out of my zone with an airgun. I don't shoot 70-100 yds shots and I don't intend to go after larger game than a possum or raccoon, so I'm comfortable with my power range.
wll
Back in the day I shot rabbits, starlings, pigeons etc with my .177, it buzzed through them, but it did not smash them. I feel my .22 caliber guns in the 800+fps area do that. I hunt rabbit, ground squirrel, starling, that type of game and for me, the .22 is just fine.
A 50 yd shot is a pretty long one, although I shoot anywhere between 30-60 yds (60yds is a long shot for me) I'm just getting back into air gunning after a few years off so I still am experimenting with at what range should I sight in ... I'm thinking 40 yds with the power of my gas ram guns that should be just fine.
I have a Hatsan 95 Vortex and a 125 Vortex in .22 and at the speed they shoot, I can't imaging me needing more power with the game I go after, but that is me, lots of guys are shooting some really powerful guns that puts it out of my zone with an airgun. I don't shoot 70-100 yds shots and I don't intend to go after larger game than a possum or raccoon, so I'm comfortable with my power range.
wll
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Everyone has made good points, the bigger the caliber, the bigger the shock. That being said, it's all about shot placement. I squirrel hunt with an air rifle for sport, I used to use a rimfire but the AG just adds that much more challenge to it. If I were needing squirrels to feed myself, I would take a shotgun, I see no challenge in that. That's why I only take head shots,
if I can't get a clean head shot, I let it go. Any caliber is sufficient with proper shot placement.
if I can't get a clean head shot, I let it go. Any caliber is sufficient with proper shot placement.
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I can't speak for everyone, but part of the formula (for me) is getting close. Really close!
Blinds, Ghillie suits, and camo are all take part of getting in close. While I admire those guys who hit pigeons with the PCPs at 100 yards, I'd rather make a 5 yard shot on a ground squirrel or collared dove. And I can assure you, that 8 FPE is quite adequate on either species.
Blinds, Ghillie suits, and camo are all take part of getting in close. While I admire those guys who hit pigeons with the PCPs at 100 yards, I'd rather make a 5 yard shot on a ground squirrel or collared dove. And I can assure you, that 8 FPE is quite adequate on either species.
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Why would you think that a gun shooting a 177 cal pellet at 865fps would do better than one that shot a 22 cal pellet at 895fps? Those gifted folks who can kill a moose with a BB gun aside, the numbers usually tell the story. I'm not trying to second guess your choice, just curious.
Rob.
Rob.
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Personally, I don't like .177 for any animals besides English House Sparrows and Starlings as the pellet is so small and doesn't give you a large killing area or wound channel, you have to be super accurate with them to prevent wounding the animal by a pellet just missing the vital area. This can be a problem if the animal moves even the tiniest amount when the shot is taken. While I won't look down at anyone that choose a .177, I also feel that most of us are better off using at least a .22 for dispatching or hunting animals.
When it comes to killing an animal it isn't about fps or caliber, rather it is about penetration. No matter how you look at it, penetration requires energy and is the result of mass and velocity. While I'll never argue that accuracy isn't important (you have to be able to hit the lethal zones of the animal after all), the fact is if you don't have the energy to penetrate the hide, muscle, bone AND still have the pellet retain enough energy to destroy the brain/vital organ, it doesn't matter how accurate the gun is.
Here is some data I collected on Polymags for an article I wrote on choosing an air rifle caliber:
.177 Big Cat 836 fps 8 gr 12.41 fpe at the muzzle 10.38 fpe at 20 yards 1.073 inches penetration of Plastalina modeling clay at 22 yards
.22 NP2 722 fps 16 gr 18.51 fpe at the muzzle 15.70 fpe at 20 yards 1.172 inches penetration of Plastalina modeling clay at 22 yards
.25 Marauder 760 fps 26 gr 33.34 fpe at the muzzle 28.17 fpe at 20 yards 1.806 inches penetration of Plastalina modeling clay at 22 yards
.22 Regal XL 936 fps 16 gr 31.12 fpe at the muzzle 25.32 fpe at 20 yards No Penetration test recorded as it wasn't part of the article.
Keeping in mind that modeling clay is not an animal's skull, you can still see some interesting results. There is very little difference between the .177 and .22 (at slow velocities) with the additional 5 lbs of energy only giving about 0.1 inches more penetration (but it still produces a larger wound channel), but there is a big difference between the .177 and the .25. Although I don't have the penetration data for the Daystate, I wanted to show it here to compare its energy with the .25 Marauder. As you can see, there is only 2 fpe of difference at the muzzle and just under 3 fpe difference at 20 yards, so saying a .25 is a big difference from a .22 isn't always the case. We can also predict that the penetration data for the Daystate would be very close to the .25 data based on the energy numbers.
Another point to keep in mind is the type of pellet you're using. I didn't test all of the above calibers with diabolo pellets, but I did test the .25 JSB King at 25.39 grains. Although the weight is slightly lighter than the Polymags, and the fps was 763, the penetration of the clay was 2.666 inches. That's over 3/4" difference between the two pellets and how they deliver energy to the target (which is very obvious with the wound channels both pellets give).
So what does this all say to me when it comes to choosing a caliber? The answer is it depends on the animal, shooting location, pellet used, accuracy of pellet, target area and distance to point of impact (which is what matters with energy for penetration). One of the benefits of using the .25 that Ted and I discussed at the Air Cup this last year, was the fact that the larger pellet is more forgiving in terms of accuracy. So while I can get almost identical energy showings between a .22 Daystate and .25 Marauder, the .25 gives me a heavier pellet that can help with problems like wind drift and a larger kill area if there is gun movement when the shot is taken (this "larger kill area" is what Ted shows with his "Is This A Kill Shot" video). On the flip side, because the .25 has so much energy you have to be more concerned with the pellet passing through your target and hitting something else, especially when using diabolo or hardend pellets (which is true no matter what caliber you're using).
While I've always been aware of this fact (I've had .22 diabolo pellets with the Daystate pass through chipmunk skulls at 30 yards and put chips in concrete slabs), it became very apparent to me how important pellet selection is to prevent pass throughs just a couple of weeks ago when I shot a raccoon in a trap at 5 yards with the Daystate using Air Arms Diabolo Field Heavy pellets (18 gr). The straight on head shot completely penetrated the skull (just missing the brain), traveled through the neck muscles into the chest cavity taking out one lung before exiting the left side of the raccoon.
Hopefully I've shown that killing an animal doesn't involve one single item. Rather, it is a combination of items (energy at POI, shot placement, and type of pellet) that determines how quickly an animal will be dispatched. The shooter's responsibility is to pick the best air rifle/pellet/distance/shot placement combination for the target species to give a quick dispatch.
When it comes to killing an animal it isn't about fps or caliber, rather it is about penetration. No matter how you look at it, penetration requires energy and is the result of mass and velocity. While I'll never argue that accuracy isn't important (you have to be able to hit the lethal zones of the animal after all), the fact is if you don't have the energy to penetrate the hide, muscle, bone AND still have the pellet retain enough energy to destroy the brain/vital organ, it doesn't matter how accurate the gun is.
Here is some data I collected on Polymags for an article I wrote on choosing an air rifle caliber:
.177 Big Cat 836 fps 8 gr 12.41 fpe at the muzzle 10.38 fpe at 20 yards 1.073 inches penetration of Plastalina modeling clay at 22 yards
.22 NP2 722 fps 16 gr 18.51 fpe at the muzzle 15.70 fpe at 20 yards 1.172 inches penetration of Plastalina modeling clay at 22 yards
.25 Marauder 760 fps 26 gr 33.34 fpe at the muzzle 28.17 fpe at 20 yards 1.806 inches penetration of Plastalina modeling clay at 22 yards
.22 Regal XL 936 fps 16 gr 31.12 fpe at the muzzle 25.32 fpe at 20 yards No Penetration test recorded as it wasn't part of the article.
Keeping in mind that modeling clay is not an animal's skull, you can still see some interesting results. There is very little difference between the .177 and .22 (at slow velocities) with the additional 5 lbs of energy only giving about 0.1 inches more penetration (but it still produces a larger wound channel), but there is a big difference between the .177 and the .25. Although I don't have the penetration data for the Daystate, I wanted to show it here to compare its energy with the .25 Marauder. As you can see, there is only 2 fpe of difference at the muzzle and just under 3 fpe difference at 20 yards, so saying a .25 is a big difference from a .22 isn't always the case. We can also predict that the penetration data for the Daystate would be very close to the .25 data based on the energy numbers.
Another point to keep in mind is the type of pellet you're using. I didn't test all of the above calibers with diabolo pellets, but I did test the .25 JSB King at 25.39 grains. Although the weight is slightly lighter than the Polymags, and the fps was 763, the penetration of the clay was 2.666 inches. That's over 3/4" difference between the two pellets and how they deliver energy to the target (which is very obvious with the wound channels both pellets give).
So what does this all say to me when it comes to choosing a caliber? The answer is it depends on the animal, shooting location, pellet used, accuracy of pellet, target area and distance to point of impact (which is what matters with energy for penetration). One of the benefits of using the .25 that Ted and I discussed at the Air Cup this last year, was the fact that the larger pellet is more forgiving in terms of accuracy. So while I can get almost identical energy showings between a .22 Daystate and .25 Marauder, the .25 gives me a heavier pellet that can help with problems like wind drift and a larger kill area if there is gun movement when the shot is taken (this "larger kill area" is what Ted shows with his "Is This A Kill Shot" video). On the flip side, because the .25 has so much energy you have to be more concerned with the pellet passing through your target and hitting something else, especially when using diabolo or hardend pellets (which is true no matter what caliber you're using).
While I've always been aware of this fact (I've had .22 diabolo pellets with the Daystate pass through chipmunk skulls at 30 yards and put chips in concrete slabs), it became very apparent to me how important pellet selection is to prevent pass throughs just a couple of weeks ago when I shot a raccoon in a trap at 5 yards with the Daystate using Air Arms Diabolo Field Heavy pellets (18 gr). The straight on head shot completely penetrated the skull (just missing the brain), traveled through the neck muscles into the chest cavity taking out one lung before exiting the left side of the raccoon.
Hopefully I've shown that killing an animal doesn't involve one single item. Rather, it is a combination of items (energy at POI, shot placement, and type of pellet) that determines how quickly an animal will be dispatched. The shooter's responsibility is to pick the best air rifle/pellet/distance/shot placement combination for the target species to give a quick dispatch.
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I have thought about a lot of things I could buy to test the penetration of a specific pellet (or caliber) over another. Modeling clay isn't my choice. I looked at the ballistic gelatin now on the market which emulates animal gelatin, but here too, it is a bit expensive. Then I just stumbled onto florist blocks. They're a form of plastic foam which absorbs moisture. The flower stems are poked into it, to make an arrangement. To be sure, it isn't flesh, or ballistic gelatin, but it nonetheless is a good alternative if we're ONLY doing a comparison. It is cheap too!
I don't have all of the measurements at hand, and I didn't try different calibers. Since I own a pump gun (Benjamin 397), all I did was compare a given pellet, and the number of pumps (speed essentially). The best penetration I got was with 21 grain, H&N Sports, even though their speed was rather slow (490 FPS at 7 pumps). This equals ≈11 FPE. The pellet went almost clear through a 6 inch long block saturated with water. The apparent wound channel wasn't all that great.
To my surprise, the best overall was with the pellets my 397 shoots best with—Gamo's Red Fire, 7.8 grainers. At the muzzle these hurry along right at 720 FPS with 8 pumps. That equals 9 FPE. The penetration into the water saturated block was a scant 3 inches. But the apparent wound channel was almost 1/2 inch OD at the end of its travel!
So now we have a dilemma, in that we have to compare not only the velocity and resulting energy, we have to compare pellet performance. I dare say the difference depends on factors we do not have at hand. For example, how does the neck of a pigeon compare to human flesh? Or, is the scull of a squirrel harder than a human's?
This argument isn't much different than the powder guys face all of the time—slow big bore vs. fast small bore!
From experience, I know it is possible to drop a deer with a 22-250 at better than 800 yards. One can argue that I hit a vital organ or that it was a lucky shot. Well... The deer was hit in the left shoulder, and on the right shoulder was a dinner-plate sized hole! Was it a result of energy? Or feet per second? Or bullet performance? Obviously, the latter!
I don't have all of the measurements at hand, and I didn't try different calibers. Since I own a pump gun (Benjamin 397), all I did was compare a given pellet, and the number of pumps (speed essentially). The best penetration I got was with 21 grain, H&N Sports, even though their speed was rather slow (490 FPS at 7 pumps). This equals ≈11 FPE. The pellet went almost clear through a 6 inch long block saturated with water. The apparent wound channel wasn't all that great.
To my surprise, the best overall was with the pellets my 397 shoots best with—Gamo's Red Fire, 7.8 grainers. At the muzzle these hurry along right at 720 FPS with 8 pumps. That equals 9 FPE. The penetration into the water saturated block was a scant 3 inches. But the apparent wound channel was almost 1/2 inch OD at the end of its travel!
So now we have a dilemma, in that we have to compare not only the velocity and resulting energy, we have to compare pellet performance. I dare say the difference depends on factors we do not have at hand. For example, how does the neck of a pigeon compare to human flesh? Or, is the scull of a squirrel harder than a human's?
This argument isn't much different than the powder guys face all of the time—slow big bore vs. fast small bore!
From experience, I know it is possible to drop a deer with a 22-250 at better than 800 yards. One can argue that I hit a vital organ or that it was a lucky shot. Well... The deer was hit in the left shoulder, and on the right shoulder was a dinner-plate sized hole! Was it a result of energy? Or feet per second? Or bullet performance? Obviously, the latter!
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It's good to keep in mind that although a given material may not be exactly like the real thing the results still have some valid information in comparing the "relative" abilities of each pellet. They may give better or worse penatraion in real life but the best penitrating one will always be the same one.
Rob
Rob
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I have been rather busy lately and have neglected to do any penetration testing into the same clay that WCT_Editor uses for his testing. I just did a quick test thanks to reading this thread. I shot my 70fpe .25 using 43gr eunjin and also shot 26gr polymags at 60fpe and my .30 using 44gr jsb at 73fpe. All 3 shot at 30 yards. This was just a quick test and I only took quick measurements as I have to be leaving for work soon.
43gr Eunjin 2.5" penetration and a .470" entrance hole.
26gr Polymag 1.25" penetration and a .490" enterance hole.
44gr JSB 2.25" penetration and a .510" enterance hole.
Note: I did not cut apart the clay and only measured to the back of the pellets for depth.
I think this test showed a decent representation of how these 3 pellets perform on game. Usually all 3 pass completely through on all small game but the polymags don't typically exit on raccoon sized game and bigger, where as both the others will still pass through on animals as big as coyotes. So, the polymags definitely do what they were designed to do. Keep in mind they were traveling at slightly over 1000fps for this test!! (That speed should have made them highly explosive and I believe it did.) I will say that this test has backed up the reason I only hunt with domed pellets in my high powered guns, and that is for penetration on larger animals like a coyote.
43gr Eunjin 2.5" penetration and a .470" entrance hole.
26gr Polymag 1.25" penetration and a .490" enterance hole.
44gr JSB 2.25" penetration and a .510" enterance hole.
Note: I did not cut apart the clay and only measured to the back of the pellets for depth.
I think this test showed a decent representation of how these 3 pellets perform on game. Usually all 3 pass completely through on all small game but the polymags don't typically exit on raccoon sized game and bigger, where as both the others will still pass through on animals as big as coyotes. So, the polymags definitely do what they were designed to do. Keep in mind they were traveling at slightly over 1000fps for this test!! (That speed should have made them highly explosive and I believe it did.) I will say that this test has backed up the reason I only hunt with domed pellets in my high powered guns, and that is for penetration on larger animals like a coyote.
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Look at any of the European sites, they most all use 177, I have taken a squirrel on a power pole at app 50 yards with my .22 Benji Xl, knocked him clean off the top. A few days ago, I sent my scope in to Hawke so I had no .22 to use, I broke out my Gamo CFX and saw another squirrel on the same pole. I held over just in case, miss. Next shot held on to his head, direct hit and took him clean off as well. I was impressed. Shot placement and trigger time. Know that rifle like it is an extension of you. Know when the trigger will break, keep your eyes open when that shot goes out. You will do just as well with the 177 or 22.
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What is so hard to understand about "on game performance"?????? In order to make such an observation game must be taken, correct? My take in "on game performance" is the pellets performance on the game. Not how and where to shoot it. We are not in the UK, I THANK MY GOD ABOVE, VETERANS, AND OUR FORE FATHERS that we're not under restrictions like that YET. Another thought, One time watching the old TV show Tarzan, I saw him kill an elephant with a home made long bow. Why do I say all this:
1- Why use marginal equipment when not forced into it, if it's the best you can do that's a different story all together. if one wants to use a 177 for the challenge that's their choice.it's just not mine any longer.. I'm talking about consistently taking game, not an occasional pop shot here and there. I hunt my private property very, very regularly, why would I get out there and wound and injure animals on my or any other property,
2- Have you been to the UK and hunted with a regular person You are watching video, video can be edited and manipulated. Sure some of those guy's do some good shooting, what about the rest of the public? I bet there is a lot of animals wounded and injured over there. I don't live in the UK and have a choice to use something else.
3- I shoot a lot and can put a pellet any where on the animal I want if everything is perfect. But we don't live in a perfect world. things happen and when they do why be using marginal equipment
4- enough said
1- Why use marginal equipment when not forced into it, if it's the best you can do that's a different story all together. if one wants to use a 177 for the challenge that's their choice.it's just not mine any longer.. I'm talking about consistently taking game, not an occasional pop shot here and there. I hunt my private property very, very regularly, why would I get out there and wound and injure animals on my or any other property,
2- Have you been to the UK and hunted with a regular person You are watching video, video can be edited and manipulated. Sure some of those guy's do some good shooting, what about the rest of the public? I bet there is a lot of animals wounded and injured over there. I don't live in the UK and have a choice to use something else.
3- I shoot a lot and can put a pellet any where on the animal I want if everything is perfect. But we don't live in a perfect world. things happen and when they do why be using marginal equipment
4- enough said
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