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LDC And the law
- Thread starter MDI
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without reading it all i can tell you is if you wind up getting in trouble to the point they look at your crap, there better not be any way to put one on a firearm you also own unless you have the proper stamps, licenses etc ... if all you got is paintball and airguns, they may still charge you but if it goes to court youd win that ..
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Local and state laws may differ. To stay on the good side of the Big Uncle, use only moderator labeled as FOR AIR GUN USE ONLY. Airgun moderators have a different thread size than firearm "silencers" and have a different construction.
Do you best to not mix your airgun parts with firearm parts.
Do you best to not mix your airgun parts with firearm parts.
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@MDI Airguns are not firearms. Be sure to keep your posts airgun related. If you haven’t already I suggest you search the forums for older and similar posts on the subject of moderators, LDCs, silencers, etc and read what’s been already been discussed.
Maybe start here https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/silencer/
Heres another thread https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/silencers-moderators/.
I can assure you that this thread will most certainly be locked or removed if you you attempt to discuss firearm silencers, politics, or illegal use of airguns and airgun accessories such as moderators. Unfortunately this sometimes occurs because of what other people post. Please reference this link so you don’t have to take my word for it https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/member-vendor-laws/?view=all
I hope you find the answers you seek.
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Did you read the link ? Im not discussing firearm silencers, politics, or illegal use of airguns! Only posting What the Alphabet org web sight as of Last Reviewed April 20, 2020 it seems they haved changed how the Alphabet org views LDC s
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@MDI Before you ask about what I read, I suggest you reread what I posted initially and check the dates on posts in previous AGN threads. You have over a year’s worth of post you can sort through. Your response indicates that you may have misunderstood points that I raised. Why are you responding defensively? My response was meant to assist you. Take it for what it’s worth to you. Above all, consult with an attorney for legal advice.
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It is a grey area. Technically it can be proven in court that by means of duct tape or any method of affixing... If any device reduces muzzle report even slightly, even if it is destroyed in the process.. It is illegal
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Alphabet org's position is that any device which can reduce the noise made by a firearm for even one shot is a silencer that you need a permit for. I have heard a potato would satisfy this requirement. It is not a law, it is a position of the Alphabet org. Based upon this position, they have tested airgun moderators and found some meet their definition. But they do not say which ones they are talking about.
The most conservative way to address this is to only use moderators that are built into your gun. My P35, for instance, is my most quiet airgun using only the built in shroud with the baffles it came with + some hair curlers and felt. This shroud could not reasonably be removed and placed on a firearm.
Another probably less conservative position would be to use only moderators sold for use on airguns only and marked as such. Like my DonnyFL Tanto I use on my Avenger - and only on my Avenger. I have firearms but they are not threaded for a silencer and I will not get them threaded or thread them myself. I do not know and will not find out if my Tanto could reduce the report of my firearms.
The least conservative position I can think of would be to make your own moderators and make them out of metal and sturdy enough to withstand the pressure and temperature of a firearm. If you never actually use it on a firearm it might still be legal to do this but that is not the Alphabet org's position and you could spend an awfull lot of money fighting them in court. I would discourage anybody from following this course.
The Alphabet org has started blocking the importation of "fuel filters" made of metal which look something like a silencer. Some people have apparently used them on their firearms. This is the kind of thing I think is most likely to get you in trouble.
I am comfortable with buying commercial moderators for my air rifles and with modifying the shrouds of my air rifles. I made a few moderators out of metal, plastic, and wood, but they did not work very well. So I am planning to stick with shroud modifications or commercial moderators. My guess is that the worst thing that could happen is Alphabet org could seize my moderators. If that were to happen I would not waste money on lawyers.
The most conservative way to address this is to only use moderators that are built into your gun. My P35, for instance, is my most quiet airgun using only the built in shroud with the baffles it came with + some hair curlers and felt. This shroud could not reasonably be removed and placed on a firearm.
Another probably less conservative position would be to use only moderators sold for use on airguns only and marked as such. Like my DonnyFL Tanto I use on my Avenger - and only on my Avenger. I have firearms but they are not threaded for a silencer and I will not get them threaded or thread them myself. I do not know and will not find out if my Tanto could reduce the report of my firearms.
The least conservative position I can think of would be to make your own moderators and make them out of metal and sturdy enough to withstand the pressure and temperature of a firearm. If you never actually use it on a firearm it might still be legal to do this but that is not the Alphabet org's position and you could spend an awfull lot of money fighting them in court. I would discourage anybody from following this course.
The Alphabet org has started blocking the importation of "fuel filters" made of metal which look something like a silencer. Some people have apparently used them on their firearms. This is the kind of thing I think is most likely to get you in trouble.
I am comfortable with buying commercial moderators for my air rifles and with modifying the shrouds of my air rifles. I made a few moderators out of metal, plastic, and wood, but they did not work very well. So I am planning to stick with shroud modifications or commercial moderators. My guess is that the worst thing that could happen is Alphabet org could seize my moderators. If that were to happen I would not waste money on lawyers.
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I don't know specifically what they mean by airgun silencers being, "firearm silencers by nature of their design and function". Obviously, their function is to suppress sound, no surprise there. Never having seen the inside of a firearm suppressor, I can't speak to the design similarities, but I'm sure there are some. Seems to me, if the threads are sufficiently different to prevent an interchange, the argument of design and function is moot. And by the way, should we trust the Alphabet org to regulate an item they can't even spell correctly?
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It is Scary the way the Alphabet org can change the rules/ way they interpret such parts to fit their narrative.
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Can't resist (MDI) these are LCD's (lead collection devices), not LDC's. Going back 20yrs or more to Steve in NC (coined the phrase) and the Yellow Form. AGN is great but I miss the OLD Yellow, new version is not the same.
Nothing to add to the topic except maybe a small bit of humor and a little nostalgia
Nothing to add to the topic except maybe a small bit of humor and a little nostalgia
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It can be LDC too (Lead Dust Collector). I don’t think we’re confined to using one acronym just because Steve in NC coined a phrase lol
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Great point. Sorry, been a tough week and now that I think about it LDC sounds just as right, maybe more right... I'll go have another beer and think about it some more 
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I have legally obtained powder burners suppressors and I can tell the process is expensive, time consuming and of some what questionable value. I have one for rim fire and one for my varmint rifles. I’m some what concerned about using them because they will accumulate lead dust and will need cleaning following rather involved procedures. I need to research the specifics . My intent was to use the larger one while ground hog hunting thinking that less noise might mean a better chance on getting a follow up . Time will tell on that because the silencer isn’t going to affect the bullet strike down range so that will need to be determined. I also expect the placement of the silencer will affect barrel harmonics and all that goes with it. SO?? are they worth the considerable trouble and expense? Check back with me. All the legal stuff has to be considered as well. As you can tell I have reservations
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The reason why DonnyFL and many others are able to sell "silencers" or sound suppressors for airguns is that the Alphabet org has been shot down in the courts more than once.
As has been stated previously, if the Alphabet org had their way all you would have to do is have a potato and an airgun in the same house to be in violation of their ridiculous rules.
Again, the Alphabet org rules are not LAW.
However, I would hate to have to pay what it would cost to defend myself against a tyrannical government entity with unlimited funds.
As has been stated previously, if the Alphabet org had their way all you would have to do is have a potato and an airgun in the same house to be in violation of their ridiculous rules.
Again, the Alphabet org rules are not LAW.
However, I would hate to have to pay what it would cost to defend myself against a tyrannical government entity with unlimited funds.
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We are responsible for the many uncontrolled "Agencies" within the government. The Alphabet org is only one. They have the authority to make laws that we must follow. Yet we the voting public, did not grant them these authorities. The voting public has allowed this to happen. Let's fix it!
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In my opinion Dizzums paraphrases the reality about airgun moderators quite well and succinctly. All I would add is if authorities are looking for an excuse to persecute you, airgun moderators are an excuse on a silver platter!
"without reading it all i can tell you is if you wind up getting in trouble to the point they look at your crap, there better not be any way to put one on a firearm you also own unless you have the proper stamps, licenses etc … if all you got is paintball and airguns, they may still charge you but if it goes to court youd win that .."
"without reading it all i can tell you is if you wind up getting in trouble to the point they look at your crap, there better not be any way to put one on a firearm you also own unless you have the proper stamps, licenses etc … if all you got is paintball and airguns, they may still charge you but if it goes to court youd win that .."
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The Alphabet org's stance is simply their opinion. it is not law. Alphabet org does not make or pass laws. Congress does.
They are simply answering a question.
Companies like DonnyFL Huma Odb, etc. are all manufacturing legal to purchase, own and use moderators built to work on non-Firearm devices. period.
Where some folks get hemmed up is when they start to cross the line with devices that are classified as firearms.
The Majority of us follow the laws and have no issues to worry about.
They are simply answering a question.
Companies like DonnyFL Huma Odb, etc. are all manufacturing legal to purchase, own and use moderators built to work on non-Firearm devices. period.
Where some folks get hemmed up is when they start to cross the line with devices that are classified as firearms.
The Majority of us follow the laws and have no issues to worry about.
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This is my own opinion -
There are a number of things airgun suppressor manufacturers do to not become silencers and come under federal firearms law. It's definitely a grey area with risks associated with it. Part of the secret sauce are things like, the sound suppression material in the moderator is felt, a flamable substance, so using on a firearm would destroy the internals. The mounting hardware is 1/2 x 20 thread, which I believe is different from standard firearms. I believe Donny FL has letters from the Alphabet org stating that their moderators are not considered, by the Alphabet org to be silencers. Each of these actions shows intent NOT to be used on a firearm.
The cases cited by many supporting suppressors on firearms all center around intent. If the intent is to use the item as a silencer, it becomes a firearm (silencers are firearms, go figure), and requires a tax stamp. Potatoes can reduce the report of a gun, but if the intent is to eat it, nope, the courts won't touch it. The oil filters can be modified to be silencers, but if purchased by a diesel shop, it'd be hard to show intent to use as a silencer. However, if the oil filter is modified to act as a silencer, you be in big trouble!
The key is that technically, if it can be used as a silencer on a firearm for one shot, it can be considered a silencer by Alphabet org. Alphabet org will not offer generalized opinions so they don't put themselves in a corner. It's a crazy legal grey area and best approached with care.
There are a number of things airgun suppressor manufacturers do to not become silencers and come under federal firearms law. It's definitely a grey area with risks associated with it. Part of the secret sauce are things like, the sound suppression material in the moderator is felt, a flamable substance, so using on a firearm would destroy the internals. The mounting hardware is 1/2 x 20 thread, which I believe is different from standard firearms. I believe Donny FL has letters from the Alphabet org stating that their moderators are not considered, by the Alphabet org to be silencers. Each of these actions shows intent NOT to be used on a firearm.
The cases cited by many supporting suppressors on firearms all center around intent. If the intent is to use the item as a silencer, it becomes a firearm (silencers are firearms, go figure), and requires a tax stamp. Potatoes can reduce the report of a gun, but if the intent is to eat it, nope, the courts won't touch it. The oil filters can be modified to be silencers, but if purchased by a diesel shop, it'd be hard to show intent to use as a silencer. However, if the oil filter is modified to act as a silencer, you be in big trouble!
The key is that technically, if it can be used as a silencer on a firearm for one shot, it can be considered a silencer by Alphabet org. Alphabet org will not offer generalized opinions so they don't put themselves in a corner. It's a crazy legal grey area and best approached with care.
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