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It seems odd to me that we still have conversations that include statements like “airguns dont have hydrostatic shock because they go too slow”.


we have plenty of footage of birds literally tearing in half from hits. If you want to see hydrostatic shock in action, keep an eye out next weekend for our new video where we are testing new slugs. The shock is amazing. We cant even show some of the hits on youtube it was such a violent reaction to flesh Airguns can and do have a ton of shock when tuned up Thats what that beautiful pop noise is!

keith
 
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Having killed 500+ squirrels over the years. And as much as I want them all dead for property damage and crop damage reasons. They deserve a ( dare I say humane) rather a quick kill. 

When i first got into killing squirrels, yes killing, not “pesting” a salesman at the gun shop said to me “you want want to hit them hard and break them up inside, I’ve killed hundreds and that what you want to do.” I thought he was nuts but turns out he was as right.

My $.02.....
 
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I'm going to take out my 22cal condor and tune it to 18 or 20 fpe if it will go that low. It probably will with the ringlock kit. Then I'm going to detune the gamo urban to 8fpe and find a place with squirrels. Easier said than done since I live in the San Francisco Bay area but perhaps I will go to Clearlake or something. I appreciate all your thoughts I will use domes at 50 yards and polymags at 30 and 15 yards.
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I will ask this nicely, with a simple statement one should NEVER experiment this kind of stuff on a live animal, 

Please take the animal with a known system then if you want to test penetration use it for that purpose
 
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It seems odd to me that we still have conversations that include statements like “airguns dont have hydrostatic shock because they go too slow”.


we have plenty of footage of birds literally tearing in half from hits. If you want to see hydrostatic shock in action, keep an eye out next weekend for our new video where we are testing new slugs. The shock is amazing. We cant even show some of the hits on youtube it was such a violent reaction to flesh Airguns can and do have a ton of shock when tuned up Thats what that beautiful pop noise is!
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There's no doubt the slugs are effective but the pop sound and ripping a bird in two don't necessarily represent evidence of hydrostatic shock. For example, the pop could also be from the cavitation trail behind the projectile. That said, you may well be right that your example represents hydrostatic shock. Do you have evidence that there is distant hemorrhaging? To my understanding, that would be pretty compelling. You seem very certain to the point of incredulous, however it isn't really us here on AGN that need to be convinced, it's the medical research community and its 70+ years of research that does.
 
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Willie I am not an unethical hunter. 8 fpe at 15 to 30 feet is more than enough energy to kill with perfect accuracy. I should say that it will be 11 fpe at the muzzle but even still guys hunt squirrel with slingshots and kill with 3fpe. Shot placement is key and I have killed more squirrels with my 177 crosman 760 than I have with any other guns I've ever owned combined and it gets 8fpe at muzzle. I know they will die quick but I will time the death with a stopwatch to learn how to be an even more ethical hunter. If you dont think single digits can kill rabbit and squirrel tell that to every Englishman alive and tell me what they say. Anyway nervous is pretty much the authority on this subject I have learned a ton from him. I knew this subject would be contentious but I love all you guys thanks for your opinions even you Willie. I know your thoughts come from a good place. Nobody wants to see an animal suffer. Take it easy guys. 
 
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I'm not sure that the Hydrostatic Shock phenomenon is a "settled science", very much like man made "global warming". It appears to be disputed by the scientific community. See below:





Hydrostatic shock is the controversial concept that a penetrating projectile (such as a bullet) can produce a pressure wave that causes "remote neural damage", "subtle damage in neural tissues" and/or "rapid incapacitating effects" in living targets. It has also been suggested that pressure wave effects can cause indirect bone fractures at a distance from the projectile path, although it was later demonstrated that indirect bone fractures are caused by temporary cavity effects (strain placed on the bone by the radial tissue displacement produced by the temporary cavity formation).

Proponents of the concept argue that hydrostatic shock can produce remote neural damage and produce incapacitation more quickly than blood loss effects. In arguments about the differences in stopping power between calibers and between cartridge models, proponents of cartridges that are "light and fast" (such as the 9mm parabellum) versus cartridges that are "slow and heavy" (such as the .45 ACP) often refer to this phenomenon.

Martin Fackler has argued that sonic pressure waves do not cause tissue disruption and that temporary cavity formation is the actual cause of tissue disruption mistakenly ascribed to sonic pressure waves. One review noted that strong opinion divided papers on whether the pressure wave contributes to wound injury. It ultimately concluded that no "conclusive evidence could be found for permanent pathological effects produced by the pressure wave".

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View attachment 1573590768_15258889015dcb16f05e05c5.25473593_hydro shock paper.pdf






 
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I too very much value the importance of a humane kill so I take these recommendations against trying single-digit FPE in good faith. However I can say that 8fpe in .177 will anchor a gray squirrel with a proper brain shot at least out to 30 yards, even with a blunt-nose pellet:

https://youtu.be/TMC04JPmWns

As mentioned in the video, that's not to say I recommend it as a great everyday solution, just saying I don't think we should reflexively conclude it to be unethical. Things do change a bit in the larger .22 caliber. Looking at a hypothetical in Chairgun, a 14.3gr dome at that distance would arrive with about 5.5fpe at a velocity of 416fps. For comparison, the .177 wadcutter in the video arrived with about 4.6fpe at 470fps. At some point, the velocity falls enough that penetration becomes a concern. I don't know where that is but I suspect the .22 would be plenty effective in this case provided a domed pellet is used and the placement is good. As Willie mentioned, I think it is a good idea to experiment with a recent kill before attempting it.
 
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Sorry Augie, I just re-read your post and see you described 8fpe on impact, not at the muzzle. No doubt that will be devastating on a gray squirrel with either a brain or a vitals shot.

That reminded me...at these leisurely velocities, the biggest practical issue we face is the exaggerated trajectory. It begs for vigilance in characterizing your range card and knowing precisely your quarry's distance and angle. Before taking the shot in that example video, I had practiced with the rifle and pellets quite a lot and had absolute confidence it would place the pellet exactly where needed. It's not the gun I would reach for a woods walk where I may need to take quick shots. For that, I would want something with a flatter trajectory and plenty of power for a slightly imperfect shot.
 
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Yeah nervous this is my whole point instead of trying to match fpe to penetrate the vitals but still "dump" the energy and leave the projectile somewhere in the body cavity why not just go overkill and anchor the animal with a clean pass through? Unless your shooting at a feeder you set up at a particular range you have no idea what range your quarry will be at. High power is the only way to go unless you control the distance of the target. That being said knowing how little fpe is needed at target is a great tool for airgunners. Ill let you know what my results are. I will report back in a month with 25 to 50 kills on stopwatch depending on my success. Should be interesting 
 
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Willie I am not an unethical hunter. 8 fpe at 15 to 30 feet is more than enough energy to kill with perfect accuracy. I should say that it will be 11 fpe at the muzzle but even still guys hunt squirrel with slingshots and kill with 3fpe. Shot placement is key and I have killed more squirrels with my 177 crosman 760 than I have with any other guns I've ever owned combined and it gets 8fpe at muzzle. I know they will die quick but I will time the death with a stopwatch to learn how to be an even more ethical hunter. If you dont think single digits can kill rabbit and squirrel tell that to every Englishman alive and tell me what they say. Anyway nervous is pretty much the authority on this subject I have learned a ton from him. I knew this subject would be contentious but I love all you guys thanks for your opinions even you Willie. I know your thoughts come from a good place. Nobody wants to see an animal suffer. Take it easy guys.
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Sorry I'm so used to shooting big bores with big numbers I see small numbers I get nervous,

Your right of course 

As to Hydrostatic shock I've always compared it to the same effects of a depth charge. 










 
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I too very much value the importance of a humane kill so I take these recommendations against trying single-digit FPE in good faith. However I can say that 8fpe in .177 will anchor a gray squirrel with a proper brain shot at least out to 30 yards, even with a blunt-nose pellet:











https://youtu.be/TMC04JPmWns











As mentioned in the video, that's not to say I recommend it as a great everyday solution, just saying I don't think we should reflexively conclude it to be unethical. Things do change a bit in the larger .22 caliber. Looking at a hypothetical in Chairgun, a 14.3gr dome at that distance would arrive with about 5.5fpe at a velocity of 416fps. For comparison, the .177 wadcutter in the video arrived with about 4.6fpe at 470fps. At some point, the velocity falls enough that penetration becomes a concern. I don't know where that is but I suspect the .22 would be plenty effective in this case provided a domed pellet is used and the placement is good. As Willie mentioned, I think it is a good idea to experiment with a recent kill before attempting it.
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That’s an excellent video, thanks for sharing.


The times I got out this year for rats I was using a modded 1322 carbine that’s doing 7.5 fpe at the muzzle (465 fps) with 15.89 jsb’s. Out to 15 yds I was getting one shot kills (head shots only) with complete pass through. This gun using these pellets will carry 6 fpe out to 32 yards (far beyond the my ratting range) which is my personal min fpe on target for rats in .22 (due to .22 having slightly less penetration than .177). 


I find myself using lower powered airguns for pest control and have even detuned most of my airguns. I mostly shoot in semi urban environments with my shots being under 25 yards. 
 
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In slingshot hunting it rarely generates 12fpe mostly below. I've seen English guys dropping squirrels but sometimes they run up and snap the neck. I see alot use 9mm round ball (3/8 in) some like bigger ammo some say smaller. With 250fps let's say and 9mm round ball usually it splits the skin but doesnt penetrate well with any distance so its more like a miniature club concentrated damage clubbing the squirrel. Blunt force trauma death opposed to pentration. Which works well with a slingshot but I dont want to apply the same rules to an airgun.

I prefer the ammo to stop before exiting on body shots. It seems to prevent em from going anywhere and if they do go it's not as far especially if the shot is a little off. I'm liking the hades pellets in a 20fpe gun because they dont go through but have had good luck with expansion and got a few this season with them and each time the pllet was bulged up right under the skin on the far side and I'm getting about 30% real world expansion of pellet. 
 
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1573615327_3101961935dcb76dfb92969.72479267_20545303-48CA-4F31-9A40-60C27C08CDE7.jpeg

this mangled mess was shot at 60 yards with a 22 caliber slug, mz velocity of 945 fps. Given that the 22 is less than a quarter of an inch wide, i would say the condition of this bird points to distant bleeding and disruption of the cavity in its entirety. I saw this time and time again the other day. New slug designs are making a heck of a difference in the terminal performance of airguns. Quite literally and body hit we got that day resulted in an incapacitated bird. Low, high, side hits. All of them dropped on the spot unless it was truly a graze. Seemed like if the slug entered the body its entire width, it was gonna be over.


keith 
 
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I'm sorry, I'm going to need more proof that is a former bird. It looks like you took a handful of ground beef, mixed in some feathers, and then garnished it with a severed leg. :)
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I'm not saying this is proof of Hydrostatic shock but I can testify to slugs acting way different on impact than pellets Sunday I came very close to videoing a deer I dressed out with a chest shot with a 308 Texan I believe your right in the cavitation effect, ...



I am not a doctor BUT... I actually do have some connections to some surgeons and I still have tags available, my next deer I am going to see if I might be able to get some professional help in this very topic. 

I have dealt with hogs tearing up a surgeons place up and in one case he and four other doctors of different fields came over and helped dress them out for donations to the food bank. We weren't looking for the effects of air rifle bullets but I am almost positive one will be willing to help with this. I will update 
 
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No intent to insult or upset anyone here ... just talking about air guns.

All this chatter about ensuring pass through ... I hunt with an air rifle because I hunt in areas where I can't hunt with a .17 or .22 PB. I shoot pellets not bullets because I don't want that bullet traveling down range a few hundred yards and going through someone's windows or cat or child. These sorts of things are important when talking air rifles because there are a lot of fellows who are pesting in urban areas with air rifles ... for them that high dollar unptyfratz .25 shooting those forty grain "dead right there" bullets at nine hundred and fifty feet per second are TOTALLY the wrong medicine.

Just my two.
 
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Nervous sting lolololol



and to using pellets for urban pesting on low power, yes of course. I use them too. I have whole videos dedicated to 500 fps pesting. Its all situationsl wha one should use. But if we are asking if Airguns CAN cause remote tissue damage, the answer is obviously yes. No other explanation for what i just showed you guys. Too bad i cant put that on youtube, the slow mo is epic :). 100% instant.....check!
 
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