Karma in the American air gun market!

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With airguns the main interest here, it is coincidental that Stephen Smith and Peter Plesinger were charged with illegal exportation of firearms and munitions. To wit, within the last four years, about 30 other individuals were charged and found guilty of the same basic offense. The most egregious case involved Sabre International. If anyone should have known they were indulging in illegal activity, it is these guys who were all principles of Saber! 

The basis behind all of the illegal activity is simply the huge sums of monies which can be made. But just like drug running, sooner or later you get stung!
 
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"RickM"Once again what does all this have to do with Randy of R&L? And why was he named?
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rick. in the first documentation provided, it states randy of R&L airguns purchased WWAG outright during the proceedings of the court as required by the judges statements

Some of the names listed were not involved in the court cases but are clearly business partners. 


Mod Edit: Removed assumptions and accusations not based on the facts
 
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"EMrider"
"RickM"If it's guilt by association where's Joe B's name then? He bought Peter's business so shouldn't he be guilty to then. What's the agenda here for naming names that have nothing to do with Peter's bad business dealings!
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The guilt by association is only in your imagination. They were mentioned only to make clear that they had no involvement in these illegal activities. 

R
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This is a reading comprehension drill. My first response to the extraneous names was 'what the f@** is this doing here?'

(the original court document links don't automatically load in android.)
 
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I don't think the intention of the original post was for anyone to focus on the actual crime(s) committed by those arrested and charged. Those incidents really have zero to do with the airgun community at large. I think it has a good deal to do with character, and the possible associations of some influential entities in the airgun world, as we know it. I would not try to ascribe guilt to any of the named parties any further than the actual indictments do. There is, however some important dots being connected (in the airgun world) if you do follow the names that have been linked together by business records (not criminal one's ;-) ). Not all the names, but certainly some of them...

Some of you may have joined forums after the crap hit the fan, or perhaps didn't really understand the true nature of the fuss - but, several years ago there was a big upheaval in the community, mainly focused around the forums. Indeed, it led almost directly to the very creation of this forum.It was like a war... it was sad to watch unfold. Information was being pumped out on a daily basis that turned one airgunner against another, etc... A man, indeed an entire company, went from being named as "airgunner of the year", "a genius", and "a friend" - to being an unscrupulous businessman, and a HUGE villain, in just one short year. Dealers were bashed for business practices, and became banned, evil, and the scourge of the airgun world. All this information was for "our" own good. Because we were being duped by some manufacturers, and some vendors - and the "good guys" were here to "save" us with the "truth" 

The most vocal person in the upheaval? - Steve Smith. He came from nowhere, to "save us" from the wrongdoings of all the other vendors, by being a good guy, who would share insider information with us, to 'prove" we were being taken advantage of. 

The reality of the situation is actually quite simple. We were ALL being manipulated.

It is, and always was, simply about steering sales away from one vendor, into others that offered a more lucrative financial gain for those in charge. When you own a forum, invest in businesses, import inventory, it is in your own interest to drive discussion towards products you benefit from. If a certain manufacturer, or manufacturers then refuses to allow you to import their stuff, well, then they are competition for your dollars. They are the enemy... 

That entire manipulation changed the entire landscape of airgunning, in my opinion, and it was not a good change... so many people got hurt, got nasty when taking sides in an argument that was manufactured simply to make money; the grudges still held, and fostered today - based on lies...
 
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"DaveG"I don't think the intention of the original post was for anyone to focus on the actual crime(s) committed by those arrested and charged. Those incidents really have zero to do with the airgun community at large. I think it has a good deal to do with character, and the possible associations of some influential entities in the airgun world, as we know it. I would not try to ascribe guilt to any of the named parties any further than the actual indictments do. There is, however some important dots being connected (in the airgun world) if you do follow the names that have been linked together by business records (not criminal one's ;-) ). Not all the names, but certainly some of them...

Some of you may have joined forums after the crap hit the fan, or perhaps didn't really understand the true nature of the fuss - but, several years ago there was a big upheaval in the community, mainly focused around the forums. Indeed, it led almost directly to the very creation of this forum.It was like a war... it was sad to watch unfold. Information was being pumped out on a daily basis that turned one airgunner against another, etc... A man, indeed an entire company, went from being named as "airgunner of the year", "a genius", and "a friend" - to being an unscrupulous businessman, and a HUGE villain, in just one short year. Dealers were bashed for business practices, and became banned, evil, and the scourge of the airgun world. All this information was for "our" own good. Because we were being duped by some manufacturers, and some vendors - and the "good guys" were here to "save" us with the "truth" 

The most vocal person in the upheaval? - Steve Smith. He came from nowhere, to "save us" from the wrongdoings of all the other vendors, by being a good guy, who would share insider information with us, to 'prove" we were being taken advantage of. 

The reality of the situation is actually quite simple. We were ALL being manipulated.

It is, and always was, simply about steering sales away from one vendor, into others that offered a more lucrative financial gain for those in charge. When you own a forum, invest in businesses, import inventory, it is in your own interest to drive discussion towards products you benefit from. If a certain manufacturer, or manufacturers then refuses to allow you to import their stuff, well, then they are competition for your dollars. They are the enemy... 

That entire manipulation changed the entire landscape of airgunning, in my opinion, and it was not a good change... so many people got hurt, got nasty when taking sides in an argument that was manufactured simply to make money; the grudges still held, and fostered today - based on lies...
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I don't care enough to monitor all the details, but the summary above sure squares with much of the drama I recall on the YF. 

A lot of what I saw there didn't pass my smell test. People and companies went from hero to villan almost overnight for reasons that seemed random or personality based.

As a result, I don't spend much time there anymore.

R
 
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I do not know how I missed all of this, it has only just been brought to my attention by a good friend of mine. For those who posted about silencers on air guns, I made a huge number of airgun silencers and shrouds for WWAG when they were in business under Steve Smiths ownership. It was only just before he sold the business that i found out Peter Plesinger had been selling fire arms parts and was told By Steve that he was being looked at by the feds because of his previous partnership with Peter. It would appear that it was an ongoing partnership and more to it than I had been led to believe. I think by now if there was any issue with air gun silencers I would have had a visit from someone. I think the law is quite clear on their use on air guns, they are only illegal when altered and the person intends to use them on a fire arm. I will continue to make them until I am visited by someone who tells me different or until there is another court ruling that says otherwise. I do not think anyone should start panicking over the use of an airgun silencer, if you intend to use it on a fire arm then you will get what is coming to you, do not do it! Neil.
 
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If it weren't for the stupid ITAR rules , none of this nonesence would even matter . The US imports billions of dollars worth of product from China ,including items from the "list" . But then a business owner can't resell / export the product back to where it came from . Is it just me or does this not make any sense. None of it really matters , after the election I beleive the US will have way more problems than ITAR infractions to deal with . 
 
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It appears from reading the documents that Peter had imported silencers from China that were confiscated by ice and that when they searched his home also found silencer or silencers. And we're probably told they were airgun related because the Alphabet org tested it or them and found gun powder residue in them....really crazy how much stuff is involved here. Looks like he may have had 2 or 3 FFL licences in the past. I will say one thing and that is the Federal Government will destroy you even if you are innocent. Unless you have hundreds of thousands of dollars to throw away you will be broke the rest of your life even if you are innocent......key here is to stay away from anything that will put you in a situation like this....A 200 dollar NFA stamp allows you to build a silencer for firearms in your garage.....check out rebel silencers and tell me what it looks like......
 
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AZ there you are being paranoid again, I had ties to Steve at WWAG and made shrouds and LDC;s for him and Peter, you think I would not have been visited by now if they were after makers of air gun silencers? They are NOT illegal for use on air guns, how many times do i have to say this. I have just shipped one to another police officer, they are not going to risk their careers and possible jail time buying an LDC for an air gun if they are illegal. I wish people would quit the scaremongering, they are not illegal to use on air guns, they are only illegal when the person has the intent to use them on a fire arm, Neil.
 
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LDP I know but when they post stuff about LDC's on air guns it gives me a real headache answering questions from potential customers on their legality. I don;t need the hassle of having to explain this to every new customer who contacts me. If a person thinks there is an issue with their legality then don't use them, it is simple, but the constant scare mongering gets to me. If you think they are illegal don't use them, but let other people make their own minds up without trying to scare them into not using them because of your own paranoia. Thanks LDP for the response, all the best, Neil.

PS. When I have a customer who seems really concerned about their legality my suggestion is not to use them and I politely refuse the build. 
 
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Neil my comment wasn't about silencers it was about doing something stupid to get involved with the Government. What I was trying to say is that if someone is involved in wrong doing the Government will use anything they find to destroy you. I have your mods and I'm also making my own airguns and mods soon to hit the market. I'm saying to people to not make stupid decisions that could cost them everything. I guarantee if an airgun guy was let's say involved with illegal drugs and was arrested. When they searched his house they found an airgun with a mod on it they would do everything they could to charge him on it. That is why in the docs the Alphabet org stated they tested said silencers for gun powder residue. It is going to cost him a 100 dollars for every dollar he has ever made to fight this.
 
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Before I even got into air guns I contacted my the local precinct and they gave me what info they had on air guns and directed me further to the Gaming commission in Albany NY...they in turn told me everything from when and where I can discharge an Air rifle (can even get a signed petition from neighbors acknowledging the report from my shooting wouldn't be a problem)...when the topic of ldc's came up they read the law to me over the phone regarding such in relation to "powder burning" fire arms. In my state an Air rifle is a fire arm, BUT an air rifle nonetheless and it was almost comical for them to think of an Air rifle ldc-moderator-shroud to be affixed to a powder burning fire arm. Again, that's in my state...the gist of this post is to piggyback what Neil just said...I'd say, simply, just call your local gaming commission or what have you for answers for your doubts (they'll definitely bounce you around to different agencies for various answers) and shoot happy.
Mr. Clague, it's with giddy anticipation I await the arrival of my S410 TDR's "whisper maker!"
 
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If an air rifle is considered by your state to be a fire arm then I would expect the Alphabet org to advise you that you would need an FFL stamp for using a silencer on it. I might be wrong because I have nothing to do with fire arms, but that would be my assumption, so you should be careful with using one on your air gun without getting clarification from the Alphabet org, Neil.
 
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