Tuning Is peek valve poppet more efficient for RAW HM1000X?

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mubhaur

mubhaur

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Nov 8, 2015
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As I understand that peek takes less effort to open the valve.

I have studied a few posts on this topic.

May I improve power or decrease the cocking effort at the same power if I put peek poppet replacing delrin ?

I have already installed SSG and I think there will be no hammer bounce issue.

My valve seat is made of stainless Steel. 

Any ideas if the peek valve poppet is good finished will hold air at 130 bars ?

Also what if I install regulator seat out of peek as well?

What should be the ideal dimensions?

How much better may I feel after all this ?

Regards, 

Umair Bhaur 
 
PEEK as a poppet material is very durable being much more so than ACETAL, NYLONS or Similar plastics.

Peek is Hard ! and will not shape shift to match sight out of square mating to the seat. BOTH must be dead flat and true to one another and have a very smooth finishes to correctly seal.

While a PEEK poppet will come off the seat easier, the total energy required in lifting a peek poppet and holding it open for sufficient dwell will only change a small amount.

So to say "More Efficient" while true, only marginally so IMO.



PEEK on Regulator seat follows the same requirement and is vastly more durable. I'm pretty sure RAW uses peek on all the "X" series regulators from the factory as well there HP regs for there standard HM / TM rifles.
 
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PEEK as a poppet material is very durable being much more so than ACETAL, NYLONS or Similar plastics.

Peek is Hard ! and will not shape shift to match sight out of square mating to the seat. BOTH must be dead flat and true to one another and have a very smooth finishes to correctly seal.

While a PEEK poppet will come off the seat easier, the total energy required in lifting a peek poppet and holding it open for sufficient dwell will only change a small amount.

So to say "More Efficient" while true, only marginally so IMO.



PEEK on Regulator seat follows the same requirement and is vastly more durable. I'm pretty sure RAW uses peek on all the "X" series regulators from the factory as well there HP regs for there standard HM / TM rifles.
Click to expand...

Thanks Scott. 



Regards 
 
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All I use is Peek. The last bsa r10 I tuned I had to take a drastic amount of weight off the hammer and spring just by using peek for a poppet. However, I did switch from a tapered seat to a flat face. The only true test I ever did was on a Uragan. With nothing ( at the time) changed other than using peek, I had to back out my hammer spring a half a turn, which is a decent amount on a uragan, to maintain previous velocity. If you can make it yourself and its apart go for it, but I wouldnt pay anyone to do it thats for sure.



 
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Put me on the list of peek fans--- any gun I own that is not equipped with a balanced valve is equipped with a peek poppet.

I will add when guns are converted to peek poppets, stem protrusion can be inadvertently changed at the same time. This can affect the perceived effects of converting to a peek poppet. .050" shorter stem protrusion and hammer stroke is increased, increasing hammer strike at the same time. .050" longer and hammer stroke is decreased, decreasing hammer strike at the same time. 

I have learned (the hard way) to verify stem protrusion whenever changing poppets. Just something to be mindful off.

A peek poppet is a great component to use as part of a system of modifications to improve performance of your gun.
 
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Put me on the list of peek fans--- any gun I own that is not equipped with a balanced valve is equipped with a peek poppet.

I will add when guns are converted to peek poppets, stem protrusion can be inadvertently changed at the same time. This can affect the perceived effects of converting to a peek poppet. .050" shorter stem protrusion and hammer stroke is increased, increasing hammer strike at the same time. .050" longer and hammer stroke is decreased, decreasing hammer strike at the same time. 

I have learned (the hard way) to verify stem protrusion whenever changing poppets. Just something to be mindful off.

A peek poppet is a great component to use as part of a system of modifications to improve performance of your gun.
Click to expand...

Dear Mackeral5,

What I understand from your response is that I have to strictly stick to the specs of the stem length of original poppet. 

Am I right ?

Need your advice please. 

Also dent you a PM.

Regards, 

Umair Bhaur 
 
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Heres the deal ..... What we call APRON HEIGHT is where the LIFT of poppet and its exposed AREA is equal to the throat minus stem area.

Lift any higher DOES NOT create more air flow and only creates longer dwell due to poppet now having to travel farther in getting closed again.



Issue of stem length has a few nuances to become familiar with .

One being if hammer strike is heavy you vary well may already be lifting poppet past apron height. If stem is shortened ( Which buys you equal amounts of stroke ) you could end up having hammer striking the valve body as the stem goes flush.

Second if your set up is operating at or under Apron height and stem is excessively long ? It can be shortened which gains you hammer stroke, which in turn for the same strike energy against poppet allows backing off in hammer spring tension = ( easier cocking )



Or worst / best case your stem is already too short and hammer strike too heavy & hammer is already rebounding off the valve body never making it to apron height ( BAD )

Where as you now can replace poppet having a longer stem, perhaps find more dwell that produces more air flow & power ! generally in this case you can back off on hammer spring tension gaining easier cocking ... or just take the power and air use increase ?



UNDERSTAND the MECHANICS and it will all start becoming more clear on Cause & Effect. Tuning and troubleshooting becomes so much easier if you understand whats happening and know where to go in resolving most real or perceived problems.



Scott S
 
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Heres the deal ..... What we call APRON HEIGHT is where the LIFT of poppet and its exposed AREA is equal to the throat minus stem area.

Lift any higher DOES NOT create more air flow and only creates longer dwell due to poppet now having to travel farther in getting closed again.



Issue of stem length has a few nuances to become familiar with .

One being if hammer strike is heavy you vary well may already be lifting poppet past apron height. If stem is shortened ( Which buys you equal amounts of stroke ) you could end up having hammer striking the valve body as the stem goes flush.

Second if your set up is operating at or under Apron height and stem is excessively long ? It can be shortened which gains you hammer stroke, which in turn for the same strike energy against poppet allows backing off in hammer spring tension = ( easier cocking )



Or worst / best case your stem is already too short and hammer strike too heavy & hammer is already rebounding off the valve body never making it to apron height ( BAD )

Where as you now can replace poppet having a longer stem, perhaps find more dwell that produces more air flow & power ! generally in this case you can back off on hammer spring tension gaining easier cocking ... or just take the power and air use increase ?



UNDERSTAND the MECHANICS and it will all start becoming more clear on Cause & Effect. Tuning and troubleshooting becomes so much easier if you understand whats happening and know where to go in resolving most real or perceived problems.



Scott S
Click to expand...

Scott,

May I request you to give example of throat, stem, apron and lift.

For a certain valve and it's certain specific dimensions the example will help me a lot as the example may be in mm or inches.

Regards, 

Umair Bhaur 
 
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Back over to the GTA you go; https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=48892.msg461606#msg461606
Click to expand...

Dear Scott,

My valve specs are as under. These are for original valve and a modified valve.

Please advise if I need to change the specs for high power and good efficiency?
20210429_210431.1619712532.jpg
 The modified is still made of Delrin poppet while I want to replace it with peek poppet. 

The modified delrin is still more efficient than original without compromise on power.

Regards,

Umair Bhaur 


 
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Honestly have no idea ...

IS HAMMER hitting back of valve ?

How heavy is the poppet spring to original ? or is it the same spring ? ( valve dwell can be tuned here as well )

Within the receiver between the Valve assembly and barrel, is the passage OVER SIZE to the port size of valve and barrel ? Placing a fitted donut shape ring in there can reduce wasted transfer area.



It goes on & on in such detail .... We simply can't be a fly on the wall or step by step assist you. Without sounding sarcastic, you need to do some trial & error testing and FIGURE IT OUT or leave it alone and just shoot it !!
 
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Honestly have no idea ...

IS HAMMER hitting back of valve ?

How heavy is the poppet spring to original ? or is it the same spring ? ( valve dwell can be tuned here as well )

Within the receiver between the Valve assembly and barrel, is the passage OVER SIZE to the port size of valve and barrel ? Placing a fitted donut shape ring in there can reduce wasted transfer area.



It goes on & on in such detail .... We simply can't be a fly on the wall or step by step assist you. Without sounding sarcastic, you need to do some trial & error testing and FIGURE IT OUT or leave it alone and just shoot it !!
Click to expand...

Thanks dear,

I will do it all step by step.

Thank you for the guidance. 

Regards, 

Bhaur 


 
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Heres the deal ..... What we call APRON HEIGHT is where the LIFT of poppet and its exposed AREA is equal to the throat minus stem area.

Lift any higher DOES NOT create more air flow and only creates longer dwell due to poppet now having to travel farther in getting closed again.



Issue of stem length has a few nuances to become familiar with .

One being if hammer strike is heavy you vary well may already be lifting poppet past apron height. If stem is shortened ( Which buys you equal amounts of stroke ) you could end up having hammer striking the valve body as the stem goes flush.

Second if your set up is operating at or under Apron height and stem is excessively long ? It can be shortened which gains you hammer stroke, which in turn for the same strike energy against poppet allows backing off in hammer spring tension = ( easier cocking )



Or worst / best case your stem is already too short and hammer strike too heavy & hammer is already rebounding off the valve body never making it to apron height ( BAD )

Where as you now can replace poppet having a longer stem, perhaps find more dwell that produces more air flow & power ! generally in this case you can back off on hammer spring tension gaining easier cocking ... or just take the power and air use increase ?



UNDERSTAND the MECHANICS and it will all start becoming more clear on Cause & Effect. Tuning and troubleshooting becomes so much easier if you understand whats happening and know where to go in resolving most real or perceived problems.



Scott S
Click to expand...

Why coin a new term for an already new term? I saw “Curtain Area” discussed by Stern, and now you come up with “Apron Height”?
 
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