Is Open class suffering a slow death?

[qball]

I’m just speaking from my point of view here. Out of all the classes the piston WFTF guys should have the most complaints! However I’m sure most of them along with most of the WFTF guys I know would not care if they lift magnification limit for hunter, we all compete in our own class not with other class. It certainly is humbling when Cameron out shoots me with his piston gun.

Edit: and when Cameron out shoots me with a piston gun I WISH I had an excuse like 16x limit….

 

[Franklink]

I’m just speaking from my point of view here. Out of all the classes the piston WFTF guys should have the most complaints! However I’m sure most of them along with most of the WFTF guys I know would not care if they lift magnification limit for hunter, we all compete in our own class not with other class. It certainly is humbling when Cameron out shoots me with his piston gun.

100%

I have shot Open piston, and still have a gun set up to do so. It was only ever me and Mark I shooting it here in AZ, at least for the time that I've been involved, but my Open piston guns have always been under 12fpe.....

Anyway, I never meant for this to morph into a "which class is harder" but there have been comments to that end throughout. So, my two cents on which class is harder? Unequivocally --> Piston. I've shot Hunter piston and Hunter PCP(both back when it was 12x scope limit) and I've shot Open PCP with a harness and I've even shot Open PCP without a harness. Of all of that, any combination that includes a springer is by and away, without a doubt the most difficult/challenging.

Anybody that can be high match score with a springer is one heck of a shooter.

As for the scope magnification debate.....some Hunter guys throw shade on the 50, 60, 80x mag used in Open or WFTF. I've shot a handful of matches in Open class with a 6-24x scope, at 24x, and didn't have any misses I could attribute to misranged targets. So, weve got Hunter guys shooting high scores at matches with 16x? If AAFTA gives em just 24x.....be prepared for a lot of perfect/clean scores.

I think that the rationale for scope limit in Hunter has always been that (for most folks, especially the demographics that make up ft) it's the easiest way to be stable so they're handicapped by scope power to make up for the advantage of having your gun held up by a bipod.

(I personally feel like a shooting harness is, or can be the most stable, but I've got a 39 year old body, not a 70 year old body, so it seems that I'm an outlier).

 

[Nofilters]

Mike,
The GP matches do not have sufficient numbers for that to work well in all Divisions/Classes. As it is now, the rules require at least 15 competitors in order to qualify as a GP match. That gives a sufficiently large sample to make the 100% score meaningful. What would be a sufficient number of competitors in a single class to still have a statistically meaningful scoring system? Even with a 10 competitor minimum, Hunter/PCP would be the only viable GP class. The lesser attended classes need the other shooters to get a meaningful comparison for matches spread across the USA.

Without a qualifying number of competitors, a scoring system such as you suggest would give a huge advantage to WFTF GP competitors in the West. When compared to many of the matches in the East, Cajuns for instance, that have a high number of WFTF competitors.

Focus range finding is a standard component of FT. Hunter is the only division where AAFTA puts limits on it. So it's expected that they are the only ones that might "complain" about it.

PLEASE!!!!! Dont laugh &

be patient and maybe reread since I dont type well. Trust me it makes sense.It may take some measures to implement it but attendance would likely jump by 1/3. The biggest thing is you would have more than 3-4 people with a legitmate shot at the national title. The people in contention will have earned every point as you have. Many people can't afford $ or time to travel others will not shoot on Sunday. This is just examples.


Have 48 shot matches at a higher level of (Troyer)difficulty. avg all your qualifying matches Example 3) 2 highest and lowest or second lowest. (more than 4 matches throw out your low). course score based on (30 troyer) for example. so if all the courses you attended are calculated in your GP personal points avg Troyer 34 -30 you add 4 to your 3-course avg. total. So if you shoot 5matches the prerequisite is 3 matches. your scores are 45,42,39,35,&34 the avg troyer for all of those is 32.
2-highest 45,42 +lowest 34 =121 divided by 3 = 40.3 Now 32 troyer avg minus 30troyer standard =2 so your entering score into the final national match would be 40.33+2= 42.33.
Now clubs could choose to have as many as say (agreed to beforehand) 6.
This would encourage more attendance, more difficult courses, and travel also. If Arizona is having a GP qualifier. You want to raise the low match in your tabulation you can travel to that match and shoot a higher score than your lowest on record. This will raise your entering score for national event.

 

[Airgunoregon]

PLEASE!!!!! Dont laugh &

be patient and maybe reread since I dont type well. Trust me it makes sense.It may take some measures to implement it but attendance would likely jump by 1/3. The biggest thing is you would have more than 3-4 people with a legitmate shot at the national title. The people in contention will have earned every point as you have. Many people can't afford $ or time to travel others will not shoot on Sunday. This is just examples.


Have 48 shot matches at a higher level of (Troyer)difficulty. avg all your qualifying matches Example 3) 2 highest and lowest or second lowest. (more than 4 matches throw out your low). course score based on (30 troyer) for example. so if all the courses you attended are calculated in your GP personal points avg Troyer 34 -30 you add 4 to your 3-course avg. total. So if you shoot 5matches the prerequisite is 3 matches. your scores are 45,42,39,35,&34 the avg troyer for all of those is 32.
2-highest 45,42 +lowest 34 =121 divided by 3 = 40.3 Now 32 troyer avg minus 30troyer standard =2 so your entering score into the final national match would be 40.33+2= 42.33.
Now clubs could choose to have as many as say (agreed to beforehand) 6.
This would encourage more attendance, more difficult courses, and travel also. If Arizona is having a GP qualifier. You want to raise the low match in your tabulation you can travel to that match and shoot a higher score than your lowest on record. This will raise your entering score for national event.

Ben,

I think that idea has merit. It should be tested and explored further. I'd like to add that at least two different venues are included in the matches that count.... Kind of a compromise on the goal of "Testing the competitors ability to shoot at different venues". We all know that it becomes easier as one shoots the same course or even venue's wind conditions over and over again...

Wayne

 

[Nofilters]

PLEASE!!!!! Dont laugh &

be patient and maybe reread since I dont type well. Trust me it makes sense.It may take some measures to implement it but attendance would likely jump by 1/3. The biggest thing is you would have more than 3-4 people with a legitmate shot at the national title. The people in contention will have earned every point as you have. Many people can't afford $ or time to travel others will not shoot on Sunday. This is just examples.


Have 48 shot matches at a higher level of (Troyer)difficulty. avg all your qualifying matches Example 3) 2 highest and lowest or second lowest. (more than 4 matches throw out your low). course score based on (30 troyer) for example. so if all the courses you attended are calculated in your GP personal points avg Troyer 34 -30 you add 4 to your 3-course avg. total. So if you shoot 5matches the prerequisite is 3 matches. your scores are 45,42,39,35,&34 the avg troyer for all of those is 32.
2-highest 45,42 +lowest 34 =121 divided by 3 = 40.3 Now 32 troyer avg minus 30troyer standard =2 so your entering score into the final national match would be 40.33+2= 42.33.
Now clubs could choose to have as many as say (agreed to beforehand) 6.
This would encourage more attendance, more difficult courses, and travel also. If Arizona is having a GP qualifier. You want to raise the low match in your tabulation you can travel to that match and shoot a higher score than your lowest on record. This will raise your entering score for national event.

To add to that if a club still wanted to have a two day event it would be 2-48 shot matches and the shooter would have the privilege of taking his highest score to count towards the nationals if it were a qualifying event and the Troyer score was high enough for it to be a qualifier

 

[Scotchmo]

Scott….there is already a huge advantage to wftf shooters in the west. I doubt it would make any difference.

Mike

Doubt what would make a difference? Using raw scores instead of normalized? Based on raw scores, there seems to be a disadvantage. I’ve shot all over the USA, and when set to comparable Troyer Difficulty ratings, the scores seem to be a little lower out west, especially for WFTF. The courses generally have more wind. Normalizing to 100%, tends to equalize between courses that are very different.

 

[Scotchmo]

…
Wftf guys don’t complain about being limited to 12fpe…so the argument doesn’t really stand up.

Mike

WFTF shooters in the USA probably realize that AAFTA has no chance of changing the WFTF 12fpe limit. AAFTA does not make those rules. So why would they “complain” to AAFTA. Besides, if they want to shoot with 20fpe in the USA, they can, in Open Division, and they don’t need to change anything else in their “kit”. Now if AAFTA changed Open Division to 12fpe, you would likely see plenty of “complaining”.

 

[Airgunoregon]

I was shooting 12fpe WFTF PCP the years before I couldn't hack the position and switched to Hunter PCP this year. Those years shooting WFTF 12fpe taught me a whole lot about wind reading and trajectory that made life a lot easier when I switched to Hunter.

The range finding issue at 16 power has got to be adjusted for by double checking with "bracket range finding"

If you can maintain a steady enough position to bracket range find... then you also have a better chance of getting into the kill zone with your shot breaking/follow through. I think without that double checking with the bracketing Hunter class is at a slight disadvantage.... with it equal to the other classes for difficulty.

Hunter class folks need to find a position that is steady enough to bracket range find if they want to be competitive in my humble opinion..

Scope height is another factor for a seemingly flatter trajectory on the long shots... play with the trajectory charts scope height to find what works best for 45 to 55 yards with your equipment.

Wayne

 

[thomasair]

Scott….wftf matches are easier to win in the west because most of the wftf guys are from the other side of the country. Most of those guys also don’t attend nationals when they are over on this side, either. I agree that is tougher to shoot wftf in the west due to the more open ranges with more wind. I’ve won a lot of GPS in the west….can’t recall any I’ve won in the east, despite attending a lot of them.

With maybe the exception of the Nevada GP….the wftf scores in the west are still often the highest overall so normalizing wftf on its own is not going to change much compared to normalizing over all classes in the current form.

Mike

 

[Scotchmo]

Wayne,

OT - but - I've always said that if you can get steady enough to hit the target consistently, you should be able to get steady enough to bracket. It takes some practice/research/extra work. Just the practice of bracketing, can make you a steadier shot.

You've got it all going Wayne, and your recent scores reflect that. Randy too.

Note that bracketing does not have quite the advantage as it had at 12x, but when possible, it's still a good reality check for our focus range finding.

 

[Scotchmo]

Scott….wftf matches are easier to win in the west because most of the wftf guys are from the other side of the country. Most of those guys also don’t attend nationals when they are over on this side, either. I agree that is tougher to shoot wftf in the west due to the more open ranges with more wind. I’ve won a lot of GPS in the west….can’t recall any I’ve won in the east, despite attending a lot of them.

With maybe the exception of the Nevada GP….the wftf scores in the west are still often the highest overall so normalizing wftf on its own is not going to change much compared to normalizing over all classes in the current form.

Mike

Mike, I was talking about winning the WFTF Division Grand Prix for that year.

Being the WFTF Division winner at a specific GP qualifier match is a different story. In that case, you are correct.

 

[thomasair]

It’s already easier to win the division wftf GP attending western matches….I must be misunderstanding you.

Mike

 

[Scotchmo]

It’s already easier to win the division wftf GP attending western matches….I must be misunderstanding you.

Mike

Can you give me an example?

 

[thomasair]

Attend 3 western GPs instead of attending 3 eastern GPs. Western are easier to win.

 

[Scotchmo]

Attend 3 western GPs instead of attending 3 eastern GPs. Western are easier to win.

That's not really an example. But I respect your opinion. I have my own opinion.

I would bet that if it was normalized by Class as you suggested, you would see more western states shooters win the WFTF GP.

 

[qball]

Attend 3 western GPs instead of attending 3 eastern GPs. Western are easier to win.

I do agree that we have fewer WFTF competitors out here on the west.

 

[thomasair]

Scott….Maybe…I don’t know. Im pretty sure that I won by my western GP scores. I don’t remember exactly….but I didn’t win any Eastern GPs that I can remember.

Of course, I respect you and your opinion as well.

Mike

 

[dayjd]

Maybe the Hunter class has the most to complain about because all the rules favor the Open and WFTF class. They can keep their shooting jackets, which most don't remove after their standing shots are finished because it also binds them up from their bum bag positions and kneeling. Keep their clicking, harnesses, ect Just allow the hunter class a chance to range find accurately out to 55 yards. Maybe even get a good look at where everyone before them is hitting, or a chance to see which way the wind is blowing (mirage), or maybe even seeing where their own pellet impacts on the target. We use to be able to assist our rangefinding through bracketing but the last few years at the GP'S I have attended most of the Range Masters are angling their blocks and targets to make it hard to bracket. Unfortunately some of these culprits shoot the hunter class which apparently gives them a quick rush or something. Now even the Open and WFTF can use the bracketing system to verify their 40 to 50 power scopes if they choose to but they range so accurately they find no need for it. Bracketing is not easy and it takes a skill and time to do it accurately. Jim Cyan and I both wanted 24x to be the limit for the Hunter class when they so graciously give us 16X a few years ago. I think if we can't get at least 24x allowed in the hunter class then make it mandatory that all cement blocks and targets shot from the ground are not angled or covered up. A hunter class shooter with a cheap scope with mildots could still use bracketing to get a good number to the target most of the time if he puts the time in to learning the system. If he can do that his scores will rise and maybe be back for more.
With the WFTF Worlds coming to Arizona in 2024 I have been trying to figure out how to get ready to compete in the Veterans Class. I'm thinking next year I might try the open class if my conditioning and health allows. Maybe by trying Open I will figure out how many situps and workouts I will need to do to get in the shape to play the WFTF game and attend a World's once in my lifetime.
That's my Complaint, Rant, if I may and plans for the next couple of years. One thing I have learned from years of experience that if you want change it is not going to happen unless someone wants it bad enough to COMPLAIN, but it may take a multitude to make it happen.

 

[thomasair]

Bill….if shooting open is an option for you….your wish for higher scope mag will be granted. I hope you can make it happen.

Mike

 

[Kdog]

So if Hunter class was aloud to range at 24x and there sitting on a chair and using shooting sticks what exactly is the challenge there? Not only do I suggest you shoot a match in open class and few of them....also shoot a few matches in WFTF. Once you do that I'm pretty sure you won't have any complaints on how Hunter class rules are. If you want a higher score I'd suggest shoot more....especially offhand and kneeling. If you get that down you really shouldn't miss many shooting off a bucket and sticks. This weekend I'm shooting Hunter Piston...should be fun with the Springer with a 3" wheel on my scope .