Is Open class suffering a slow death?

[Harv24]

New guys opinion. I have been only into airguns about 2 years now. Been shooting all my life. There is a FT club about 2 hrs from me. I've been tempted to go, but when I look on their face book page, it's about a dozen shooters and there all 50+ and they seem to be divided by shooting high end Open match guns with big scopes and big parallax wheels or springers. As a veteran shooter, I would go, meet them and I know I would have a good time. But to younger shooters, there is no incentive and, in some cases, may be intimidated.

I was a big Service rifle shooter since the 90's. Started shooting my M1A and then switched to AR. We had local matches at a club and they ran informal 50 rd matches. They let you "run what ya brung" So to get more folks involved. If you had a Garand, without the 5 rd and 2 rd clips?? so what, shoot the 8 d clip. Kar 98's, shoot it.

I'm thinking most FT clubs are the same, but the sad truth, is the shooting sports are dieing across a large portion of the spectrum of disciplines.
You have to get the kids off their phones and into the 4H shooting sports clubs and BSA. But unfortunately, a lot of those programs are disappearing. Shooting sports have been cast in a poor light thanks to the media and too many young parents would freak at the thought of taking there 10-12 yr old's sons and daughters to a club to learn how to shoot a "Gun"



I think that has more to it then the rules.

 

[dayjd]

Scott, I have always said that I would just like to shoot with my bucket and bipod with a scope I could rely on. Since we can't do this in Hunter, and the Open class participation is down I was willing to forgo all their accommodations to just be able to shoot against them. Humbly I say, I like competition and to shoot against myself could turn boring quickly for me. I would not like to see the Open class shooters leave our game we have lost too many already.
I agree that your definition of OPEN has much merit and there are other match directors that feel the same way. In fact, I really like it, but we have been up against this wall many times before.
Bill Day

 

[Motorhead]

So who among our ranks has the literary skills, is articulate enough to get correct verbiage & content into a proposition & submit to the AAFTA BOG ?

Get said thoughts and propositions out too the voting clubs and give it another go to get freestyle or a consolidation of Open & Hunter classes or Simply add use of a taller seat & shooting sticks into open.

It's been debated for years, yet due to old school thinking by those in the BOG never seems to see the light of day ... We honestly NEED TOO change that !

 

[thomasair]

Maybe some of the new thinkers should work on getting elected to the BOG? If your views are shared by so many….it should not be a problem. Continually complaining about direction while making no effort to get some control of the ship seems futile.

 

[dayjd]

Gentlemen, Over the years I have done my best for changes and maybe even a little overboard. I know there is a better candidate for a BOG approval than I, so please step forward for this old dog is not chasing rabbits down that hole anymore.
Bill Day

 

[Nofilters]

I’ve noticed this also, usually many more Hunter class than Open class. And the top HFT scores are usually higher than the top Open scores. I’ve also been told by a few experienced shooters that have shot both positions that Open with the “girdle” and fat bum bag pocket is easier than HFT bucket and sticks. Not only is the position more stable but scopes can have higher mag and shooters can dial the elevation turret. I’m just repeating what I’ve heard since I’ve only shot Hunter position in FT and EFT.

In my opinion extreme Field Target is going to be the future because people can take their hunting rifles and compete and be competitive with their hunting rifles. This is all from a sitting position on some type of seat and a bipod which PS I got all kinds of flack from people when I said that was going to be the rules of extreme Field Target in Phoenix everybody doing the same thing creates the best shooters winning and the shooters that put in the most time to polish their game get rewarded not the shooters that spend the most money.

 

[tjmac]

In Open Division, we have allowed seats and bipods here in Canada for about 20 years. Open and Hunter seem to be our largest classes. We also have a modified Open for those that have physical limitations for standing and especially kneeling; we just allow them to shoot the entire match from their prefered position. May not be the answer, but our modified Open Class is growing fast.

Tim

 

[Mark.in.AZ]

Like Jayjd, my post from a few days ago is gone. Maybe the moderators didnt like what/how I said things.

I agree with most of the comments mentioned since my post, but I have to emphasize one thing that I have found; you really don't lose anything by shooting 12 fpe. You WILL learn to read the wind better.

I have shot open PCP since the begining, but have switched to open piston in the last, maybe, 5 years. Yes, it is more challenging, but I have shot some decent scores, and here of late, at our weekly matches at (lack of character) Ben Avery range, I have shot some darned good scores. When you break it down, it is just you, the target, and the wind. my open piston gun is only 11.3 fpe, and I HAVE outshot the hunter pcp shooters. Learn the wind. That is what the WFTF shooters excell in. Shooting head to head, they can clean our clocks on a regular basis. Everybody can gauge the distance close enough, but the wind is the great equalizer.

We seem to try to want to find the easiest thing to shoot, not looking for the challenge. Embrace the challenge.

Keeping this short; don't want this post to go bye-bye like my last one did. I put a lot of words and thought into writing that, also.

 

[d3vnull]

Like Jayjd, my post from a few days ago is gone. Maybe the moderators didnt like what/how I said things.

I believe your other post is #77

https://www.airgunnation.com/thread...ring-a-slow-death.1272588/page-4#post-1313340

 

[Mark.in.AZ]

I believe your other post is #77

https://www.airgunnation.com/thread...ring-a-slow-death.1272588/page-4#post-1313340

Yeah, I finally found it. I thought it was back on page three. I found it back here. Amazing.

Good back and forth conversation with everyone. Take care. MK

 

[SqrlHntr]

I am not an experienced FT shooter compared to most, but love the sport all the same. I would much prefer to shoot Open, but nobody around here does. I think just a sling and a pad has more realism to hunting than Hunter class. Hunter class is by far the most popular in my area. Being new to the sport my initial takes on the class was Hunter was accommodating for physical reasonings, but also to be an easier class to learn in. I personally don’t like sticks and buckets but to get accustomed to FT it has been great. Now im stuck because theres very few other shooters in other classes around here to compete with. Even in Textreme pistol, the ‘Bandito’ class was discussed, where no sticks were to be used. Sadly I was the only one who wanted to ditch the sticks so that class never formed.
My deeper thoughts on FT are not very popular so I dont express them much, I just abide by the rules and try to have fun and shoot the best I can. But I’ll share them here. I think there should be a Purist class where only slings are allowed, no sticks, no harness, no jackets or gloves,16x max, no scope dialing besides parallax and any position allowed. I see FT as a physical sport that simulates small game hunting, requiring the shooters to endure natural shooting conditions and terrain. Rock in your butt when sitting? Shift position or deal with it. Focus on the shot and your mind will ignore it. Long haul uphill to the next lane and your pulse is high? Not unlike the adrenaline rush while hunting, breathe, count and overcome. Its the experience. Im not discounting sticks and buckets, without the class the sport would be all but dead and many shooters would just not be physically able to shoot FT. But combining the classes takes the sport farther from its roots, IMO. Prone position is all but gone too and the explanation to me on that is murky at best. If we want the sport to grow with younger folks from say the CMP program or NRA stuff, a Purist class would also be more along those shooting styles. Sitting, kneeling, prone and standing with a sling. Virtually all marksmanship programs teach these positions and sling use. I dunno, just one mans opinion.

 

[jps2486]

I'm an old guy that took up FT less than 10 years ago. I shot HFT. Why? I can't keep dropping down to a bum bag all day long and I don't want to get dressed up like GORT with the jacket and straps. Shooting should be a contest of marksmanship not one that is influenced by how stiff your jacket is and how tight your straps are. Personally, I think WFTF class is kinda ridiculous. If we only had two classes, PCP and Springer using HFT rules, would that even the playing field? That raises the question of power level. There are 12 fpe shooters that could beat the pants off any 20 fpe shooter any day. I think the power limit should be set at 20 fpe and forget about the rest. Some rifles shoot better at 12 than at 20. In this way, the shooter's ability to judge wind, distance and trajectory will determine who is the best marksman. We've over complicated this thing with way too many rules. Oh and I forget click vs holdover. Simplify this too.

 

[Ezana4CE]

@SqrlHntr I like how you expressed your “deeper thoughts” and I think they’re worth considering when viewing the competition as a simulation of small game hunting. I find that to be right up my alley. I have yet to participate and don’t quite see FT as such a physically demanding sport due to the high participation rate of seniors. However, the challenges that would come about by a “Purist Class,” as you put it, would potentially alienate a lot of FT shooters who appear to be older men (many with physical limitations). It doesn’t seem too far fetched to think that a Purist Class may suffer a similar fate as Open Class currently does for lack of the ability to participate due to physical limitations or lack of appeal. At least the fates of the two classes might be similar if competitors are unable to introduce and attract youth to the sport. So finding ways to attract and inject new blood into FT competition seems to be a recurrent theme here and a key element to the discussion. Still I love your idea and think that something like that could be promising in attracting youth from other shooting disciplines to the sport.

 

[Centercut]

I am not an experienced FT shooter compared to most, but love the sport all the same. I would much prefer to shoot Open, but nobody around here does. I think just a sling and a pad has more realism to hunting than Hunter class. Hunter class is by far the most popular in my area. Being new to the sport my initial takes on the class was Hunter was accommodating for physical reasonings, but also to be an easier class to learn in. I personally don’t like sticks and buckets but to get accustomed to FT it has been great. Now im stuck because theres very few other shooters in other classes around here to compete with. Even in Textreme pistol, the ‘Bandito’ class was discussed, where no sticks were to be used. Sadly I was the only one who wanted to ditch the sticks so that class never formed.
My deeper thoughts on FT are not very popular so I dont express them much, I just abide by the rules and try to have fun and shoot the best I can. But I’ll share them here. I think there should be a Purist class where only slings are allowed, no sticks, no harness, no jackets or gloves,16x max, no scope dialing besides parallax and any position allowed. I see FT as a physical sport that simulates small game hunting, requiring the shooters to endure natural shooting conditions and terrain. Rock in your butt when sitting? Shift position or deal with it. Focus on the shot and your mind will ignore it. Long haul uphill to the next lane and your pulse is high? Not unlike the adrenaline rush while hunting, breathe, count and overcome. Its the experience. Im not discounting sticks and buckets, without the class the sport would be all but dead and many shooters would just not be physically able to shoot FT. But combining the classes takes the sport farther from its roots, IMO. Prone position is all but gone too and the explanation to me on that is murky at best. If we want the sport to grow with younger folks from say the CMP program or NRA stuff, a Purist class would also be more along those shooting styles. Sitting, kneeling, prone and standing with a sling. Virtually all marksmanship programs teach these positions and sling use. I dunno, just one mans opinion.

I like it. But how about REALLY simulating actual hunting? We stand, we lean on a tree or a fence, we sit, sometimes with our back against a post or tree trunk, we sometimes use a bipod when sitting or standing if we carry one with us, and we go prone with an attached bipod. We don’t limit our scope power but usually have a favorite mag for a range of distances, we click or we holdover, depending, we use laser rangefinders, we shoot pellets or slugs, we use repeaters and shoot from magazines, we use moderators to be quiet….

Now we’re talking REAL hunting simulation which many of us do for small game or pesting, ground squirrels, rabbits, etc.

We DON’T wear shooting jackets or shooting gloves. We generally don’t use hamsters or dial the focus for yardage, we don’t wear support girdles, we don’t sit on buckets, bum bags, or chairs, we don’t generally have 60x $3K scopes, we mostly don’t use massive butt hooks…

Come to think of it, the above sounds very much like Extreme Field Target, with a few exceptions. We sit on a stool or bucket and we don’t attach bipods to the gun. Other than that, bring your hunting rig and have fun.

 

[thomasair]

One interesting observation I’ve made over the years is that most all the complaints about AAFTA come from the Hunter division….and mostly about scopes.

Hunter shooters compete against other hunter shooters. No matter what the rules are….they are fair across the particular division. Many shooters want to be recognized as the best overall shooters without actually competing in the other divisions against that divisions best shooters. This is accomplished in their minds by shooting the high score overall. AAFTA did away with high overall awards for this very reason….but some areas still cling to this tradition. It’s this desire that fuels the continuous demand for scope power upgrades in Hunter. The upgrade from 12x to 16x didn’t improve the competition in the Hunter division….it just gave them a better chance of getting the high overall score. Forgetting about the high overall score wouid be beneficial to everybody….but it’s unlikely to happen.

Following in the footsteps of the UK….and having separate organizations would take care of that problem, but would cut attendance numbers here drastically.

The reality is that the US is just too big geographically and getting people together from across the country requires alot of travel. The UK is about the size of Colorado….and people can participate countrywide with far less travel.

None of my WFTF peers that I can think of hunt and use FT as a means to improve their hunting skills. FT is simply a game….with a worldwide set of uniform rules. If you want to play that game….you abide by its rules. Wftf will always be very popular worldwide.

 

[Motorhead]

Sounds like sour grapes there Mike ...
Same course of fire .. meaning same targets & distance shot by everyone on the same day.
If the Hunter class shooters bests the traditional classes at high score ... Acknowledged or not by the powers in charge, it is no small feat !!

You traditionalists / purists etc ... can still have your WFTF game sadly I don't see it as the game most in the USA will be willing to play. ( see: Hunter class, Extreme FT etc )

So take as many bow shots as you want ... This FT sport as we know it many have played for years, is going to grow or whither away in the coming years based upon how stead fast the AAFTA takes it's positioning on these conflicting wants and wishes across this country.

There are choices to be made ... If the AAFTA does not wish for there to be more growth in what has been the greatest growth segment of these past 10+ years, there will become other organizations for Air gunners to fill that void !! It's already happening.

 

[Franklink]

.....FT is simply a game….with a worldwide set of uniform rules. If you want to play that game….you abide by its rules. Wftf will always be very popular worldwide.

Most AMERICAN field target shooters could not care less about WFTF.

The small percentage of American FT shooters that are WFTF shooters been pointed out a couple times throughout this discussion.

Since the vast majority (what, 90-95%?) of us (Americans) will never shoot in WFTF and an even smaller percentage (1-2%?) will ever compete in Worlds, why don't we make the rules align with what the majority want? And then we can abide by rules that align with what most of us are interested in.

Keeping a fragmented pool of competitors, at least in part to ensure that the 5% of American shooters that are WFTF shooters "have a place to practice" is just poor logic. Especially with the argument that shooters shouldn't compare scores across classes. If you're not interested in what other shooters are scoring just stay home and practice in your back yard.

Or at least hold a vote to see if all the opinions shared in the last 5 pages are from a squeaky wheel vocal minority or if they represent the feelings of the majority.

(Motorhead shared his most recent comment while I was typing, some milar sentiment though).

 

[thomasair]

Nobody is ever complaining in wftf. We are all happy to shoot amongst ourselves.

There were no bow shots….that’s just your projection.

At the events I like to go to….wftf used to be a pretty big class. Covid has knocked the numbers down. Probably all around.

As I said before….I’d be happy to have one giant class where everyone shot the same rules….but It will never happen here in the USA.

Wftf is probably the biggest class in the world already.

Mike

 

[Motorhead]

One interesting observation I’ve made over the years is that most all the complaints about AAFTA come from the Hunter division….and mostly about scopes.

Hunter shooters compete against other hunter shooters. No matter what the rules are….they are fair across the particular division. Many shooters want to be recognized as the best overall shooters without actually competing in the other divisions against that divisions best shooters. This is accomplished in their minds by shooting the high score overall. AAFTA did away with high overall awards for this very reason….but some areas still cling to this tradition. It’s this desire that fuels the continuous demand for scope power upgrades in Hunter. The upgrade from 12x to 16x didn’t improve the competition in the Hunter division….it just gave them a better chance of getting the high overall score. Forgetting about the high overall score wouid be beneficial to everybody….but it’s unlikely to happen.

Sorry Mike ... You can't get away with such statements without them being seen as BOW shots.

So what your saying tho not admitting is ... That the best of the WFTF shooters SHOOTING in the Hunter class would be the better shooters ?
Knocking down the damn targets is done by the better shooters .... So if the game of being somewhat handicapped in power ( WFTF ) , tho having Many aids afforded to the class that hunter shooters don't get to use / have, makes them better shooters. No we don't think it does.

You very well know that for years the WTFT folks in the USA, as well OPEN ruled the roost and simply spanked all comers enjoying there dominance over the new hunter class shooters .... UNTIL THEY DID NOT. So who is really doing the crying ?

Just because there by capita more Air Gun shooters across the pond ( Shooting WFTF due to power regulations ) than stateside is by CIRCUMSTANCE of very little fire arms in the public's hands being highly regulated.
We are in the USA where Fire Arms in the public's hands is as old as our constitution of 200+ years. BB / Air guns are and have been mostly viewed as toys in the publics eye.

You / We wish for the sportsmen in this country to even take a second look at Air Guns ? our model in gaining shooter involvement remains vastly different than other parts of the world. Keeping this Vintage BB gun mentality is not going to grow any Air gun sports here in the states.

Now lets recap ...

BY CLASS COMPETITION is Good ! he who is best in there specific class is obviously the better shooter IN THAT CLASS.
Universally across all shooting disciplines ... WE shall AGREE

Those in any class that shoot a high match score besting all others Should never be tossed aside, but looked at in terms of why is that so ?
What class and afforded gear / apparatus / technique / power etc ... was in play and congratulated. Not necessarily rewarded, just acknowledged.

Argue as many will / do, Making any sport harder generally eliminates players willing to join the game. Sure the toughest will make rank in there class pursuit and take there podium proudly. More folks who feel there able to conform to the class rules, more players you will get !!
( Long Live the Hunter Class )

This thread has gotten side tracked, for that I'm sorry
Yes OPEN class is dying because as shooters come to the game ... More appealing class options exist. The Simple truth.

 

[thomasair]

I very much believe that the wftf class has produced the best FT shooters in our country as well as probably any other.

Not afraid to say that.

Mike