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Is DonnyFL Ronin worth while upgrade from FX moderator on impact 25 factory tune

Well......my hypothesis of plastic and hot glue is turning out to be true, good thing I didn’t pull the trigger on STO. I wanted to get the Mus for my impact especially when I use slugs which can easily hit 90+ FPE. Regardless of your airflow it SHOULD NOT explode. If used a little incorrectly(air rifle use vs center-fire) it should simply be loud not explode and possibly poke someone’s eyes out. STO might want to buy good insurance since one of these days crap might happen. 



 
There is a WARNING plainly displayed on his site these are experimental units so one must undertake some personal responsibility here. We understood, if we read the article going into this, that some parts were actually 3Dprinted and so likely epoxied. The unit did not actually explode, if you look at the picture, although the 3Dprinted material did fail inside and the unit launched from his gun. What we learned from this is that they are not good for use in high fpe guns.
 
So normally I don't post in these sorts of threads, positive or negative, however I've now gotten several messages asking more or less the same handful of questions so I figured I'd poke my head in and clear the air.

First I feel I should explain why I'm doing this. I do this moderator research because I find it fun, interesting, and very VERY challenging. I've been doing it for years. For a while my day job was designing suppressors on firearms. Constraints though in that industry meant I could never truly scratch my itch for certain exotic architectures. When my wife bought me an FX Crown which was louder than my tastes, and I noticed airgun moderators were widely legal in the US, I picked this back up. I publish the research because I've met some genuinely amazing human beings doing similar in the past, people way smarter and more interesting than I, who've become great friends. I started offering them for sale because said people started banging on my door wanting to get their hands on my research. At first I gave them away for free, but they're too expensive and time consuming to make to just give away, so the obvious solution was to charge money but also try and hide the designs away so the general public wouldn't get their hands on them. And that leads me to my first important point: in case it wasn't crystal clear let me just say it again these are all EXPERIMENTAL. These are meant for enthusiasts who want to play with cutting edge experimental moderator technology. If that doesn't describe you, please purchase one of the many alternatives on the market. qball I'm very specifically looking at you saying this, these are very clearly not what you're looking for.

Second I want to hit the point of durability. I don't have some secret test rig in the back room made to break moderators, my research is basically all published out there for people to read. If you want to hit one of my designs harder than I have, by all means since all this is an experiment, but know you're in uncharted territory. I do engineer safety factors into the designs, That safety factor is >3, that is to say every design is rated to handle greater than three times the output pressure of the test rig (in this case my 80FPE FX Crown). Just to give some context, safety factors vary widely depending on industry. Orbital launch vehicles for example (rocket ships) tend to have a safety factor between 1.1 and 1.3. Structural members in buildings are usually 2. Usually the most extreme safety factors you'll see on equipment is 10. Most high pressure air vessels, such as the bottles in the airgun industry, have a safety factor of around 3-4 depending on how you rate/test them.

So why did Trinitymaker's core fail? While I haven't examined it yet, I suspect it is a simple case of exceeding the pressure the design was built for. FPE is NOT the determining factor for what sort of abuse you're going to subject a moderator to, it is just a very rough way of guestimating it without doing any real math. Pressure and volume are related, and so if you substantially reduce that expansion volume, you're going to correspondingly increase the operating pressure. Based on a little napkin math and the ideal gas law, the shroud on my Crown alone is likely reducing the operating pressure of any moderator attached to it by a factor of over 6. Add a little more, again very rough, napkin math for that heavily modified Condor and you're probably somewhere north of 10x what that poor little Gladius was designed for. Not only am I not surprised it failed, I'm quite pleased to hear it survived ~20 shots. The point is the air pressure and volume at the muzzle are the real factors, but that is a much more complex thing and it something not well understood. Pressure transducer experiments in moderators is something I'd like to get into, but that poses a whole suite of challenges and I'm just not there yet.

Why don't I publish outputs in decibels? This is something I've covered before with ackuric who seems to have either not seen it or ignored it. I responded more comprehensively and technically to your claims that a cell phone with an app is a good way to measure sound output from airguns in a different thread, which anyone interested in the more technical elements can/should revisit. Let me cover it again briefly since you brought it up.

I have never seen a single test of airgun moderators with a sound meter capable of reading the peak output, that is to say the "uncorking" peak produced when the pellet clears the moderator muzzle. The cell phone app sound meters ackuric has repeatedly recommended simply can not do it. Even the respectable Extech 407730 used by AEAC, which is much better than most of the other airgun tests I've seen, isn't capable of it. The peak uncorking event is over in less than one ten thousandth of a second. If you go to page 3 of the manual for the Extech, you can clearly see that this meter's fast response time is .125 seconds or approximately four orders of magnitude too slow. If you have an example of someone who has used an impact sound meter, which is a VERY different device from a typical sound meter, to measure airgun moderators I would love very much to read their research. They probably have much more valuable things to say than I do. So please, don't hold out on us, if you have a link to such research or have done it yourself PLEASE share it.

That said, if you want an apples to apples comparison, decibels to decibels, you need three things:

1) An impact sound meter capable of reading the actual peak (not capturing some random unknown post-peak sample)
2) That sound meter needs to be calibrated. The firearms industry standard is a Brüel & Kjær which needs to be calibrated every 6 months if memory serves.
3) Said research/data needs to be published so we all can see it and compare.

I don't have all three. I've got a meter capable of reading the peak, but it does not have a recent enough certificate of calibration, meaning it is effectively "uncalibrated" therefore the db conversions are not valid. So while I have a conversion to decibels, I don't publish it because I don't want to create a pool of garbage data. It also wouldn't mean anything to most people because there is nothing out there to compare it to.

I hope that makes it clear why I don't publish decibel conversions, instead providing raw outputs. Believe me, I would love to get burst disc calibrations on a regular basis not only to make my data potentially more useful to someone else in the future who has an impact meter as well, but also to fight any potential for drift of the meter itself over time. But I don't, so here we are. I do the best I can with what I've got, and you kinda have to make up your own mind to take it or leave it I guess. After all, even if I published the converted data, I'd just be another crazy guy on the internet.

I share all this because I find the research fun, and I cherish some of the friendships I've made doing this. They tend to start with the same sort of email "hey, I loved your research, but I'd like to try out one of your designs. Is there any way I can get my hands on one?" They are why I do this, what makes it worthwhile. If its not your cup of tea, no biggie. I try to avoid getting sucked into these forum fracas specifically because they're no fun at all, but I wanted to try explaining a couple important technical issues people had brought up, and so I hope this helps. :)

And, with that, I'm going to take a bit of a break from the forum. Cheers everyone! :)
 
So I tried, for about 20 minutes now, to post a response to this thread. For whatever reason, I don't seem to be able to. The post submits and simply disappears. I don't know why. I've PMed the contents of my intended post to Michael and a couple people here. Hopefully one of them will be able to share it. 

Beyond that, I'm going to take a bit of a break from the forum. Cheers everyone. :) 
 
There is a WARNING plainly displayed on his site these are experimental units so one must undertake some personal responsibility here. We understood, if we read the article going into this, that some parts were actually 3Dprinted and so likely epoxied. The unit did not actually explode, if you look at the picture, although the 3Dprinted material did fail inside and the unit launched from his gun. What we learned from this is that they are not good for use in high fpe guns.



The warning label won't prevent people from suing especially if not grossly abused like putting it on a center-fire. If someone had crap happen with just 10-20 FPE(15-25%) over supposed use range then lawyers will be all over that. This isn't to bash STO but generally what would happen. The ebay sellers selling these carbon moderators are in china and nothing will happen to them if some crap goes wrong.



However as a potential customer it is very concerning to see the very product I was looking at breaks out of box and not far from advertised range and more concerning when their product break STO questions the use case and point to user error right away instead offering a more durable replacement. STO could of turn the situation to their benefit but from the correspondence I find it very concerning and will not purchase from them.
 
Avoid the STO moderators. STO told me they could handle 80FPE, but the Mus and Pilum (both "moderate flow") couldn't handle 50-60FPE and they fell apart on me quickly. I ran the Mus for a day and noticed the foam started coming into the bore path., but it turned out not to be the case. When I contacted him about the problems that I was having, he immediately accused me of being at fault
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There is a reason why DonnyFL, TKO, and others have had success. The Sumo and Ronin are as quiet as the big Mus was. The Pilum is narrower, comparable to a Sumo without the durability factors.


My Gladius exploded on me yesterday. I had only put 25 or 30 shots through it. My gun is a .25 Condor that is regulated. It's making 80 FPE, which STO does indeed reference on his website as it pertains to a .30 FX Impact. I have pictures of the left over pieces. I pulled the trigger, heard a very loud explosion, and watched the end cap and 2/3 of the 3D printed internals fly 30 yards downrange. I contacted STO and explained to him the situation. He told me he doesn't think it's a moderator failure. He thinks it's an issue with my gun. He asked me if my barrel was threaded, or if I was using an adapter to affix the moderator to my rifle. I told him the barrel was threaded, but if he's insinuating it may have shaken apart because of harmonics, he was incorrect. My rifle is built around the Condor SS frame, and I have 4 barrel baffles evenly distributed throughout the frame of the gun that concentrically hold the barrel within the frame of the rifle. The sole purpose of these is to eliminate harmonics. I'm still waiting to hear back. He told me I could return the moderator and he would send me another one (shipping paid at my cost of course). But when he theorizes or proposes that the failure was due to the gun and not the moderator itself, it relinquished him from accountability if it happens again. 

When I look at the extrusions from the 3D printing (which are impossible to see unless the moderator blows apart because it's all epoxied together) I can see hollow portions in the middle of sections that should be solid. I will attach pictures for everyone to see. I want the moderator to work SO BADLY because it's very quiet and it's as light as a feather. But when my neighbor calls me minutes after the failure, and he tells me he not only heard the explosion when the moderator failed, but he also heard the slug "whistle" by his property as it probably spun off in some random direction at 960 fps, that's a VERY DANGEROUS failure. 

I'm speculating he's going to suggest it's a harmonics issue. I've read his research on various items, and he is a very brilliant guy. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt for now and I'm genuinely interested in his thought about why he thinks the failure took place. I'm not here to demonize him or his product. If it's something I did wrong, I'm definitely open to hear what he has to say. 

MtnGhost- describe the platform you had the moderator attached to. Are you attaching it to a threaded barrel, or a threaded barrel adapter? I'm still perplexed why this would matter, but this is what he specifically asked me. So I sent him a picture of my barrel per his request. There is zero evidence of clipping, and he even admitted that he doesn't think that clipping is the issue. He has a statement on his website that the moderators are all made to order and they are still in an experimental stage. 

Here are the pictures of the failure:

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1590338359_6031331065ecaa337512704.82866967.jpg


1590338376_12916133035ecaa3485b1284.96502928.jpg

Yeah, he also defaulted to insinuating that my FX rifle was the problem - then suggested that I send him my rifle so he could test it LOL! Pretty un-f'ing believable.. you'd never hear Donny et al come off like that (then again, I have had ZERO failures with his moderators). 

Sorry to hear about your incident though!