Is baiting really hunting?

[JimD]

Baiting is a form of hunting. When I hunted deer in PA I enjoyed stalking through the woods far more than sitting watching a deer trail. The only one I shot was on a deer damage area. A farm that was deer infested. Was that baiting? The farmer planted crops the deer liked but he did it to feed cattle. Then he lost a lot of the crops to deer so he opened it up for hunting.

When I moved to SC, I found it impossible to walk through the woods. Way too much scruffy undergrowth. So the only practical thing to do is to hunt from a stand and I lost interest. It is legal to bait here. Some plant food plots. Is that baiting? Others have programmed corn feeders - more obviously baiting. It can be done year round for hogs - some would consider pests.

I put out a bird feeder in the winter. I know it will attract squirrels and I shoot some of those squirrels. Is that baiting?

Your local DNR has already decided what is reasonable and therefore legal in your area. Many factors need to be considered. It is unreasonable in my view for somebody in an area like PA to call deer baiting inappropriate (i.e. not hunting) when it is being done in accordance with applicable regulations which often means other forms of hunting are not at all practical. You do not live here and do not know what is appropriate here. Judging others by what is reasonable in your area is not right.

Jim

 

[oldsparky]

I grew up hunting with a rifle and shotgun. I got married and had kids very young. I relied on deer, quail and dove when we could get them. In my young twenties I bought a second hand bow. That was really my only recreation. I spent more hours at the archery range with my kids than anyone I knew. I shot pretty good and entered shoots when I could and did very good. Finally I was able to hunt deer with my bow. Sadly to say I went out and wounded several deer. Shooting wasn’t my problem Where I was hunting the forest mulch was covered in deer tracks and the forest was pretty thick. I didn't have any skill at tracking in those conditions so the deer were lost. I didn’t hunt deer after that with a bow for maybe ten years. Later a group of hunters persuaded me to try archery one more time. We hunted from tree stands. A few of the stands were set in areas over ranchers salt or water holes. Hunting like this the yardage was known exact and shots could be chosen well. Also the pressure of needing meat was no longer a necessity. Shooting deer like this there was a very high percentage of a quick humane kill. That made hunting with a more limited weapon than my rifle acceptable to me. I kind think of my pellet gun having limitations like the older bows. So If bait helps to insure a humane kill do what you think is right. Hey you never have to justify anything to me anyway. Have fun be safe. And teach a kid to shoot!

 

[austin870]

​​​​​​Interesting question. I find baiting to be closer to trapping than hunting. Instead of using a trap they simply wait until it comes for the bait and shoot it. It is closer to “procurement” than “sport”.

It’s kind of like standing 10 feet from the bullseye and calling yourself a target shooter. Technically you are shooting a target but it is certainly not what most shooters consider target shooting or a sport. It is legal and you are free to call yourself whatever you like. Then it gets down to semantics, which is really a waste of time chasing with any group.

Let's not hide behind "the governement says it is legal" as the moral high ground. Talk about a group that is wrong more than it is right. 

 

[Vetmx]

The defense that a farmer’s field, apple orchard or an stand of oaks is no different than baiting is weak. If you can’t see the difference between farming or mother nature’s natural smorgasbord compared to a pile of corn in the woods or a feeder full of black oiled sunflower seeds in a residential neighborhood, it understandable why you would defend baiting. The only reason game commissions are starting to support baiting is because of the massive loss of hunters over the years. They decided that people have changed and license sales will increase if they welcome baiters to join the hunters that are left. A farmer that leaves the corn standing in the corner of his field is baiting. No different than a food plot. It’s called intent. That’s what defines baiting.

 

[fuznut]

Seen this b.s. all my life. Prejudice comes from a lack of first hand experience. Go deer hunt South Texas or bear in Canada or try to take a leopard in Africa with out bait. I use to run deer with dogs everybody objected to that, till they would come hunt with 8 or 10 times and not kill. Then they would say that's too hard I don't want to run all day trying to stay in front of a pack of dogs. All that crap about unfair advantage and being to easy would go away every time. In a earlier post they say how sick and tired they are of others judging them for shooting varmints and going on about how wrong that is. Then ture around and do the same thing to others for using bait. Always been that way nothing new just sad.

 

[Pale_Rider]

Seen this b.s. all my life. Prejudice comes from a lack of first hand experience. Go deer hunt South Texas or bear in Canada or try to take a leopard in Africa with out bait. I use to run deer with dogs everybody objected to that, till they would come hunt with 8 or 10 times and not kill. Then they would say that's too hard I don't want to run all day trying to stay in front of a pack of dogs. All that crap about unfair advantage and being to easy would go away every time. In a earlier post they say how sick and tired they are of others judging them for shooting varmints and going on about how wrong that is. Then ture around and do the same thing to others for using bait. Always been that way nothing new just sad.

Amen

 

[Longfellow]

Let's not hide behind "the governement says it is legal" as the moral high ground. Talk about a group that is wrong more than it is right. 

No less an authority than Texas Parks and Wildlife has publicly stated that baiting on private property is hunting. I'm afraid private baiters do have the 'moral high ground', as it were. OTOH, if you think otherwise ... then please give us sourced linked examples of how and why TPWD is incorrect. And/or sourced linked examples how and/or why TPWD has been more wrong than right 

Only TPWD, please. We are not concerned w/ what governments as a whole do. 

 

[Vetmx]

Just because baiting is a legal way of harvesting game doesn’t mean it’s hunting. We’re not having a legal debate here. It’s more of an ethical or definition debate. Or possibly just opinions.

 

[Septicdeath]

And a great bunch of opinions. You all have been posting some interesting things. This is exactly what I was hoping for.

 

[davidsng]

 

https://youtu.be/8AzRtlof_Uw





I sat in the stand for four hour wait for these two to get courage to come out of the brush. They knew it was dangerous, they knew something was a miss. The came out twice then jetted as a raised the gun. Then 20min before I call it a night, they finally allowed me a shot.

I consider that hunting, just easier and more productive, but still hunting. 

Imo, but that cool if you dont agree. Do what suits you.

 

[Longfellow]

Just because baiting is a legal way of harvesting game doesn’t mean it’s hunting. We’re not having a legal debate here. It’s more of an ethical or definition debate. Or possibly just opinions.

Repost: ... No less an authority than Texas Parks and Wildlife has publicly stated that baiting on private property is hunting. https://tpwd.texas.gov/regulations/outdoor-annual/hunting/general-regulations/means-and-methods

Your profile says you live in PA?

Under Pennsylvania law, it generally is unlawful to hunt in or around any area where artificial or natural bait, hay, grain, fruit, nut, salt, chemical, mineral or other food – including their residues – are used or have been used within the past 30 days as an enticement to lure game or wildlife.
DON’T GET CITED FOR BAITING - Pennsylvania Pressroom
www.media.pa.gov/Pages/Game-Commission-Details.aspx?newsid=59

Looks like for a Texas hunter, baiting on private property is both legal and ethical. In Pennsylvania ... it isn't.

Might be real interesting to match each of the state laws w/ the folks who have posted on this thread. I'm sure their states respective laws has a direct correlation on what they consider to be ethical.

 

[Longfellow]

https://youtu.be/8AzRtlof_Uw







I sat in the stand for four hour wait for these two to get courage to come out of the brush. They knew it was dangerous, they knew something was a miss. The came out twice then jetted as a raised the gun. Then 20min before I call it a night, they finally allowed me a shot.

I consider that hunting, just easier and more productive, but still hunting. 

Imo, but that cool if you dont agree. Do what suits you.

Great vid. Nice going. *Two Thumbs Up*

 

[Frozenspyder]

I guess I would consider baiting to be a type of hunting. Just a different type of hunting. Just as hunting from a tree stand and stalking are different types of hunting. Personally, I don't like baiting. I find it boring, but I won't judge others for doing it. To each their own.

 

[JungleShooter]

I find this discussion very interesting.



I'm trying to understand all the different methods that humans are using to "hunt" an animal — so I came up with the following classification (based on a bunch of hunting articles and books):



TWO GENERAL HUNTING TYPES:



(TYPE A) Ambush hunting/ Ambushing

Methods: (A1) Hide hunting

(A2) Driven hunt (really ambushing and stalking)





(TYPE B) Stalk hunting/ Stalking

Methods: (B1) Flush Hunting

(B2) Linger and stalk hunting

(B3) Scout and stalk hunting

(B4) Spot and stalk hunting



Each method has a variety of techniques, e.g.:

▪baiting: natural bait and artificial bait

▪decoying

▪calling

▪night vision

▪float hunting

▪etc. etc.


➔ The attached PDF explain each of these, and adds a bunch more techniques.





Please, before you despise me, ban me, block me, or sue me — read my disclaimer.... 

Many of these methods and techniques are not legal under certain circumstances,

or they are not considered ethical by some,

or they are not considered "hunting" or "fair chase hunting" by others!!



Thanks!

Matthias



Attachment:

HUNTING. Hunting Types and Hunting Methods 

View attachment HUNTING. Hunting Types and Hunting Methods.1626943193.pdf

 

[Guest]

Oh boy. Here we go with another thread whereby one "real hunter" defines "real hunting" for the rest of the world. One of those "everyone knows real hunters would never (insert judgemental diatribe) because (insert moral superiority)" ...

 

[Vetmx]

Just because baiting is a legal way of harvesting game doesn’t mean it’s hunting. We’re not having a legal debate here. It’s more of an ethical or definition debate. Or possibly just opinions.

Repost: ... No less an authority than Texas Parks and Wildlife has publicly stated that baiting on private property is hunting. https://tpwd.texas.gov/regulations/outdoor-annual/hunting/general-regulations/means-and-methods

Your profile says you live in PA?

Under Pennsylvania law, it generally is unlawful to hunt in or around any area where artificial or natural bait, hay, grain, fruit, nut, salt, chemical, mineral or other food – including their residues – are used or have been used within the past 30 days as an enticement to lure game or wildlife.
DON’T GET CITED FOR BAITING - Pennsylvania Pressroom
www.media.pa.gov/Pages/Game-Commission-Details.aspx?newsid=59

Looks like for a Texas hunter, baiting on private property is both legal and ethical. In Pennsylvania ... it isn't.

Might be real interesting to match each of the state laws w/ the folks who have posted on this thread. I'm sure their states respective laws has a direct correlation on what they consider to be ethical.

I actually hunt 3 states, all with different laws but this all brings up one interesting point. Why is normal traditional hunting universally legal across all states but if you’re a baiter, you need to study each states rules? This is what provoked this topic and what I eluded to earlier. Society/hunters have changed. God forbid if a modern day hunter has to sit in his stand 7 days and not see something. 

 

[fuznut]

All hunters do things to help their odds. Camo, build blinds, tree stands etc. Just because one puts bait out does not mean he is going to shoot every thing that comes to it. And yes there are areas and animals that baiting is the only way of having any chance of success. If you want to kill a mountain lion your only hope is dogs. We can't all do the same thing every where. If your preferred method of hunting is to (still hunt) slowly quietly move through the woods. Stalking is seeing some thing and trying to get closer. If you want to still hunt don't bother going to south Texas it's a impenetrable wall of thorn scrub. You must go where the terrain and cover will allow you to do that. My objection to this whole thread is where does it ever end? No he don't use bait but he ain't no hunter because he has a scope real hunters use open sights. That guy drives around on a 4 wheeler that ain't hunting. That group uses cameras I would never do that. On and on might be best if we all just do what we like the way we want and try not to judge and attack our brothers who do things different.

 

[Longfellow]

Just because baiting is a legal way of harvesting game doesn’t mean it’s hunting. We’re not having a legal debate here. It’s more of an ethical or definition debate. Or possibly just opinions.

Repost: ... No less an authority than Texas Parks and Wildlife has publicly stated that baiting on private property is hunting. https://tpwd.texas.gov/regulations/outdoor-annual/hunting/general-regulations/means-and-methods

Your profile says you live in PA?

Under Pennsylvania law, it generally is unlawful to hunt in or around any area where artificial or natural bait, hay, grain, fruit, nut, salt, chemical, mineral or other food – including their residues – are used or have been used within the past 30 days as an enticement to lure game or wildlife.
DON’T GET CITED FOR BAITING - Pennsylvania Pressroom
www.media.pa.gov/Pages/Game-Commission-Details.aspx?newsid=59

Looks like for a Texas hunter, baiting on private property is both legal and ethical. In Pennsylvania ... it isn't.

Might be real interesting to match each of the state laws w/ the folks who have posted on this thread. I'm sure their states respective laws has a direct correlation on what they consider to be ethical.

I actually hunt 3 states, all with different laws but this all brings up one interesting point. Why is normal traditional hunting universally legal across all states but if you’re a baiter, you need to study each states rules? This is what provoked this topic and what I eluded to earlier. Society/hunters have changed. God forbid if a modern day hunter has to sit in his stand 7 days and not see something.

Do what? 

Eluded - definition of eluded by The Free Dictionary
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/eluded
1. To evade or escape from, as by daring, cleverness, or skill: Example: The suspect eluded the police.

Provoked this topic, you say?

Quote from the OP:
"Do you consider baiting and shooting hunting? This is a discussion on another forum."

But, rather than post at the above said unidentified discussion already in progress, the OP decided to provide a soapbox at this forum for provocation. 

I do not believe 'Society/hunters' have changed. OTOH, the people making the laws in each state obviously have changed ... for the worse. Pity we're not allowed at AGN to discuss WHO and/or WHAT the people making the laws are, eh? Or, WHY they are changing America's hunting laws for the worse.

 

[Longfellow]

I keep what some folks would consider a ... um, ...(ahem) ... BAIT STATION ... (aka a bird feeder) ... in my backyard. It attracts various species of wildlife. There's not a day that goes by that I do not consider popping one or more squirrels the said BAIT STATION attracts ....in the head. I COULD do that (both legally when in season and/or ethically); but, I choose not to.

Why?

Many people at the apt complex I live have made pets of the local squirrels. Who am I to deprive a neighbor of what may well be their only source of pleasure in this world? Their 'pet squirrel'.

OTOH, the bird feeder ... ooops, excuse me ... my BAIT STATION ... also attracts pests other than squirrels. Fortunately, my neighbors have not tried to make pets of the hosps and starlings it attracts. Yay me.

 

[austin870]

Interesting to see so many different points of view and how people interpret things. Generally they are interpreted to make themselves feel better about what they are doing. To call something "hunting" seems to make someone feel better yet everyone else is free to interpret what that "hunter" is doing however they please. The term "sport" really gets stretched with hunters. Many won't just say "I just legally kill some animals and eat them" and leave it at that. It has to somehow be sanctified under the term "hunting or sport" otherwise they feel like they are doing something wrong but like it. Personally it doesn't bother me. Are we really talking about people's feelings here?



It seems odd that some people justify baiting etc on how scarce the game is in a given area. If game is that scarce you need to leave it alone for some years as the numbers are too low to support actual hunting. Some areas may need to be abandoned as the area won't sustain hunting at all unless you want to go several days without even seeing anything. It wouldn't justify other methods generally used for pest control. You are trying to hunt in a crummy area. I can't hunt moose in my local area either. I have to go somewhere they are abundant. People typically "hunt as a sport" in areas where the game has overgrown the resources in the area.