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Inside the Skout Epoch

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Motorhead said:
That would put me in the 1%
Should have my SKOUT this coming weekend ... let the journey begin šŸ§
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I am glad that you will have one in your hands, then we will know everything about it, both positive and negative things, although aluminum is easy to weld, I could add an additional plenum to your Epoch unfortunately people have to change all of this in order to get better results, because the manufacturers they don't LISTEN to what people with a lot of experience in the PCP world tell them!
 
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Thanks ...
but honestly know nothing of spool valves, tho conventional balanced valves I've got a pretty solid handle on.
Plenum ... really thinking what we have come to accept required in conventional knock open poppets has already sorta been put into question with balanced valves. For no other reason than there ability to deliver a high amplitude pressure pulse very quickly and volume becomes a tad less important. valve is open and closed very fast. If one hears a correctly set up balanced valve PCP .. there muzzle report is ridiculously low for the power output being made.

Perhaps the SKOUT spool valve can be made to act similar in a Super fast closing cycle ? That is going to be my first exploration having done similar in JSAR architecture valves that also use Throat pressure during the shot to quickly close the poppet.

Just thoughts ....
 
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Motorhead said:
Thanks ...
but honestly know nothing of spool valves, tho conventional balanced valves I've got a pretty solid handle on.
Plenum ... really thinking what we have come to accept required in conventional knock open poppets has already sorta been put into question with balanced valves. For no other reason than there ability to deliver a high amplitude pressure pulse very quickly and volume becomes a tad less important. valve is open and closed very fast. If one hears a correctly set up balanced valve PCP .. there muzzle report is ridiculously low for the power output being made.

Perhaps the SKOUT spool valve can be made to act similar in a Super fast closing cycle ? That is going to be my first exploration having done similar in JSAR architecture valves that also use Throat pressure during the shot to quickly close the poppet.

Just thoughts ....
Click to expand...
I'm not familiar with those valves either (partially I am), but I know that every millisecond of internal ballistics is important, and I'm still of the opinion that the size of the plenum, its pressure, valve opening time, the size of the valve throat-transfer port and the entrance to the barrel are the most important things in PCP for power and efficiency.
 
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Motorhead said:
Another item on my mind that someone who has been into there SKOUT may have info on ? Or SKOUT will reply ?

Solenoid places a puff of LP air between the rear of poppet stems large piston and sealing collar making valve open ....
Then upon discharging a pulse of HP air travels down poppet stem and gets in behind the large piston forcing it to close ....

** So my inquire ?
The LP air that is in place while valve is open, what becomes of it ? Is there a bleed hole somewhere ?
When the HP gets on opposing side of the Stems piston indeed it overpowers the present LP on the other side forcing a closure.
But if the LP is not vented out, soon as the poppet closed it would open the valve again .... see where I'm going here ?

I understand kind of a DEEP question ... But a valid one too.
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Not sure on what 3 way solenoid model they're using, but it will have an exhaust port.
 
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thomasair said:
You guys could just do the math on the figures given. Itā€™s about 1.30 fpe/ci. Thatā€™s a respectable efficiencyā€¦but with a 40fps spread and SD of 7. If the gun was tuned to get the SD down to a competition reasonable 2-3, it will use a lot more air. As a general ruleā€¦if the gun has a long barrel and itā€™s loud, itā€™s not efficient. Efficient guns are comparatively quiet.

That saidā€¦.Itā€™s likely that 99 percent of those that buy this gun only care about the shots per fill, and not the actual efficiency.

Mike
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Thanks for the calcs Mike.
I am interested in both shot count and efficiency. I have no need for an efficient gun with low shot count, or a gun with high shot count at the expense of reasonable efficiency.

As an update to the ES and SD, I have made a few adjustments and as expected, those numbers have already been cut in half. (Higher HPR and lower LPR settings). I am looking forward to even better numbers and learning more as I go.
There are things that can be done to shorten the valve timing even further but will likely require higher pressures to achieve similar velocities. No free lunch. I will be trying a few things for sure.

I had a great conversation with Billy Gardner of Skout yesterday. The key to their future may well be in their tremendous customer service and desire to improve. I found him to be genuinely interested in feedback and responsive to a customer. One of the best interactions directly with a manufacturer I have ever had! Well done indeed!
 
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Motorhead said:
Are you paying attention to the muzzle report ? Hearing any change ?
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I am paying attention but I haven't noticed any real difference so far. I also added some stuffing inside the moderator. The mod has a few things which could contribute to the report. The internal air stripper looks like it would benefit from more and/or larger holes. The front of the mod also has a large number of ports which may be too open to provide enough suppression. I will be trying a few simple things to see if it helps.
 
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Lewis said:
I am paying attention but I haven't noticed any real difference so far. I also added some stuffing inside the moderator. The mod has a few things which could contribute to the report. The internal air stripper looks like it would benefit from more and/or larger holes. The front of the mod also has a large number of ports which may be too open to provide enough suppression. I will be trying a few simple things to see if it helps.
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Thanks Lewis for the info.
 
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Lewis said:
I am paying attention but I haven't noticed any real difference so far. I also added some stuffing inside the moderator. The mod has a few things which could contribute to the report. The internal air stripper looks like it would benefit from more and/or larger holes. The front of the mod also has a large number of ports which may be too open to provide enough suppression. I will be trying a few simple things to see if it helps.
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Yes, I believe the shorter dwell has helped with the sound, but like Lewis, I stuffed the center of the mod with 2-1/4ā€ x 36ā€ of thin felt wrapped around the core tube. It seems to be grouping well, but will take some getting used to on my part. The report is different than Iā€™m used to hearing, and sounds like what it isā€¦a giant blast of air.
 
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Bigragu said:
Scott, weā€™re you able to get it in a 25 cal(or 22?)
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Only .30 at this time .... Will fabricate a probe and retrofit another caliber barrel if push comes to shove in waiting for other OEM calibers.
Honestly learning the rifle is going to take some time and just need to suck it up that .30 is just going to be more costly for the interim.
 
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In the IWA video, at 12:40 below, Billy Gardner shows a barrel housing and discusses the availability soon to be able to install an FX liner of a specified length in the Skout. They can also make you a probe. The magazines will be a bit out yet so we will need someone to create us an adapter for our current FX mags or begin 3d printing some mags and/or single shot adapters. They are proving to be open minded and solution oriented.

 
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SKOUT Airguns hit the ground running with their EPOCH .30 caliber platform. Right out of the gate, the .30 caliber has already proven itself to be an amazingly accurate gun. SKOUTs build quality is without ANY question, the best in the industry. The EPOCHs single knob velocity adjustments allows the gun to deliver consistent speeds/power levels which is IME, revolutionary. However, as with any new product, there have been some bumps in the road. While the .30 caliber is everything SKOUT has promised, the second caliber that WAS to be released, the .25 (my caliber of choice), has proven to be far more challenging. The .25s release has been plagued by numerous accuracy issues, not something a manufacturer can tolerate in a competition rifle. These issues have caused several delays and some redesign of several aspects of that calibers hardware. To SKOUTs credit, they've chosen NOT to release the gun in .25 until the very high performance level already set by their .30 caliber has been equaled. Of course, this will cause the naysayers to fire up their trolling pens but that's just the nature of the Internet. However, for those that realize that real quality and true innovation requires extensive R&D and with that comes a ton of failures along the way, it's SKOUTs commitment to the project and customer satisfaction that I've taken enough heart in to go "all in" on.
.
To my knowledge, I'm still the ONLY owner of a .25 caliber outside of the SKOUT company. Even as the SKOUT team continues their tests, I too have been testing and reporting back to them on a daily basis. It's my hope that we can get this thing all sorted out before NAC in mid April so I'm able to shoot the .25 in that competition. However, such is my faith in the platform, that should that NOT come to pass, I absolutely will be shooting the .30 caliber.
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As for the EPOCH ability to use liners produced by other manufacturers, that has always been a part of their plan and "YES" it remains an option for those that choose to do so. I currently have that capability with my .25 caliber although, personally, I've seen no real advantage to doing so. As I've stated all along, although I'm NOT affiliated, sponsored by or in anyway attached to SKOUT, where the EPOCH is concerned, I'm "in it to win it" as I know they are. I'll continue to work with them and to share all I can with all of those interested.

Cheers
Joe P.
 
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Airfuture said:
I'm not familiar with those valves either (partially I am), but I know that every millisecond of internal ballistics is important, and I'm still of the opinion that the size of the plenum, its pressure, valve opening time, the size of the valve throat-transfer port and the entrance to the barrel are the most important things in PCP for power and efficiency.
Click to expand...

I'll try to briefly explain WHY the plenum size is not consequential in terms of the EPOCH. The valve on a typical poppet system is very small. In order to get enough air by that valve a large amount of plenum air is necessary to maintain the valve in an opened state (travel length of the valve) for a reasonably long time.
The Epoch negates this through the use of a HUGE valve that travels only a tiny fraction of the distance necessary in the poppet system. Furthermore the valve is not being held closed by a spring, rather it is balanced on both sides by pressure. That means only the addition of a tiny bit of air pressure on either side of the valve is enough to open that valve for the brief moment necessary to allow the set (regulated) amount of air to pass through into the barrel. It's this combination of valve size and a balanced valve that negates the need for a large plenum.
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Incidentally, the new FX Pantera also has a larger valve than their previous guns although it is not a balanced valve.
 
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JoePolanco said:
ā€¦In order to get enough air by that valve a large amount of plenum air is necessary to maintain the valve in an opened stateā€¦
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Actually, a conventional valve with a small plenum can be easier to hold open as the plenum pressure falls off faster. Less pressure at the valve stem cross section means less closing force.

The usual reason for the larger plenum is to supply more energy to the shot cycle. But it actually makes it harder to ā€œmaintain the valve in an open stateā€.
 
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