Inside the Skout Epoch

[Deleted 45061]

To give a bit of comparison, the Daystate Safari Edition in .22 has a shot count with a 240 bar fill *up to 165 shots/power *up to 70fpe. The .30 *up to 80 shots, and *up to 105fpe (same 480cc 240 bar fill).

Daystate Alpha Wolf Safari Edition Announced Today!

The Alpha Wolf Safari Edition has a practical, ambidextrous textured wood stock, matched to a bronze-anodized frame for maximum rigidity.

hardairmagazine.com

So I don't see the shot count of the Skout filling to 300 bar on a 500cc tank (and yes I often see guys running a 700cc tank instead but I'm using the stock parameters here) as extraordinary but rather in line with every other manufacturer in the shot count department. With a 500cc tank filling to 300 bar, how many shots are users getting in .30, .25, and .22? I searched for the shot count totals and can't find it. As for efficiency, what qualifies it as an efficient valve isn't how many shots it gets but rather how much air it uses for the corresponding velocity/fpe. If someone can post their shot string chart, total shot counts per caliber, and how much air (roughly how many bar per shot) to achieve their velocity/fpe, it would give people a better picture of the performance of this airgun.

 

[Centercut]

I am not confused that Skouts engineering goal with a lower pressure per shot will also benefit with more shots per bottle fill.

That is a true statement. But it has nothing to do with efficiency.

 

[broekzwans]

The Skout should only be more efficient than other PCP designs because of the lower pressure need to achieve comparable velocities.
Lower pressure per shot means more shots per bottle..

Lower pressure mostly means more liters of air per shot (lower efficiency) and if you look at the graph I posted it means less shots per fill then with an efficient tune.

Shots per fill is a result of size of the air storage divided by the air consumption per shot and is therefore not a metric to judge efficiency.

Here's some basic physics:

force = pressure x surface area = mass x acceleration, acceleration is end velocity / time if you start calculating from a stationary velocity of 0 (pellet/slug is waiting to be shot in the barrel without moving). Rewriting this with mass, surface area and muzzle velocity being constant and implementing the velocity in the formula:

pressure x surface area = mass x muzzle velocity / time

just to make it more simple we throw out all constants so you see the relation:

pressure = 1 / time

The time in this formula is the time the valve needs to be opened to create enough force to achieve the acceleration. Following this formula you get the following relation: the lower the pressure the longer the valve needs to be opened to achieve the muzzle velocity and the higher the pressure the shorter the valve needs to be opened to achieve the velocity.


@Centercut / @AtlasAirguns so far I've only tested the .30 cal with 635mm barrel and it's about 1.4 liters/shot when shooting at 265 m/s with 44.75 grain JSBs. Comparing this with the 0.9 liters/shot I get with my Impact can conclude it is not per se super efficient as of how it is tuned now (will do a deep dive seen on this). This was to be expected with the low pressures that are being used.

I'm leaving out here which valve etc is more efficient, just looking at it as being an airgun that shoots the pellet at the desired speed when I pull the trigger.

 

[Centercut]

Lower pressure mostly means more liters of air per shot (lower efficiency) and if you look at the graph I posted it means less shots per fill then with an efficient tune.
@Centercut / @AtlasAirguns so far I've only tested the .30 cal with 635mm barrel and it's about 1.4 liters/shot when shooting at 265 m/s with 44.75 grain JSBs. Comparing this with the 0.9 liters/shot I get with my Impact can conclude it is not per se super efficient as of how it is tuned now (will do a deep dive seen on this). This was to be expected with the low pressures that are being used.

I'm leaving out here which valve etc is more efficient, just looking at it as being an airgun that shoots the pellet at the desired speed when I pull the trigger.

“Bar per shot” is not a measure of efficiency.
“Shots per fill” is not a measure of efficiency.
“Liters of air per shot” is close, but only if you also factor in FPE.
Power per standard cubic inch of air, or FPE/cu-in is the general idea for efficiency. In a nutshell, how much air the gun uses for a given FPE (power).

 

[whyzee]

To give a bit of comparison, the Daystate Safari Edition in .22 has a shot count with a 240 bar fill of about 165 shots ~ 70fpe. The .30 around 80 (same 480cc 240 bar fill).

I find this incredible! May I ask you how the Safari edition of the RW differs from the .22 HP RedWolf in order to achieve such high shot count at the highest energy level?

Edit: forgive me if you are referring to the AlphaWolf Safari

 

[thomasair]

You guys could just do the math on the figures given. It’s about 1.30 fpe/ci. That’s a respectable efficiency…but with a 40fps spread and SD of 7. If the gun was tuned to get the SD down to a competition reasonable 2-3, it will use a lot more air. As a general rule…if the gun has a long barrel and it’s loud, it’s not efficient. Efficient guns are comparatively quiet.

That said….It’s likely that 99 percent of those that buy this gun only care about the shots per fill, and not the actual efficiency.

Mike

 

[Scotty1]

I’m wondering if there is any way to determine what the dwell setting should be for a given barrel length? My Epoch came with the dwell set to 23ms, which was definitely wasting air. I dropped it to 19ms and did not lose any velocity, but haven’t experimented much beyond that. I’m looking to make this gun a lot quieter, and excess air was/is a huge contributor.

 

[Centercut]

To give a bit of comparison, the Daystate Safari Edition in .22 has a shot count with a 240 bar fill of about 165 shots ~ 70fpe. The .30 around 80 (same 480cc 240 bar fill). So I don't see the shot count of the Skout filling to 300 bar on a 500cc tank (and yes I often see guys running a 700cc tank instead but I'm using the stock parameters here) as extraordinary but rather in line with every other manufacturer in the shot count department. With a 500cc tank filling to 300 bar, how many shots are users getting in .30, .25, and .22? I searched for the shot count totals and can't find it. As for efficiency, what qualifies it as an efficient valve isn't how many shots it gets but rather how much air it uses for the corresponding velocity/fpe. If someone can post their shot string chart, total shot counts per caliber, and how much air (roughly how many bar per shot) to achieve their velocity/fpe, it would give people a better picture of the performance of this airgun.

No offense, but those shot counts for the Safari seem to be slightly exaggerated. In the .30 cal 80 shots? With 480cc bottle? Effectively “on reg”, or just shots until the bottle runs empty?

 

[Deleted 45061]

No offense, but those shot counts for the Safari seem to be slightly exaggerated. In the .30 cal 80 shots? With 480cc bottle? Effectively “on reg”, or just shots until the bottle runs empty?

Lol. Up to*. Where that lands in the real world with power cranked up to comparable 80fpe?

Daystate Alpha Wolf Safari Edition Announced Today!

The Alpha Wolf Safari Edition has a practical, ambidextrous textured wood stock, matched to a bronze-anodized frame for maximum rigidity.

hardairmagazine.com

 

[Centercut]

Yes. I have the .30 Delta with the new-ish Super Valve or whatever it’s being called now (Fast Flow?) I have a 580cc bottle on mine and get about 40 shots at 85 FPE. That’s the JSB 50.1 pellet at 875 fps.

 

[robbos]

I respectfully disagree. There is NO OTHER air rifle currently on the market that can be compared to the EPOCH since it is the only one using a balanced hydrolic valving system. A comparison to a spring and hammer system is simply apples to hand grenades. When you actually get your data from an EPOCH I'll be happy to take an objective look at it. However, at the moment, my .25 cal EPOCH gets 20% more shots on a fill than my .22 RedWolf HP and 30+% more than my M3. While this isn't strictly a scientific measure, it is my own real world expetience with these actual guns. Since there are no scientists at my range, I'll hold to my previous conclusion drawn my own experience.

He actually stated that he owns an EPOCH...

 

[Deleted 45061]

This thread is putting out some real numbers on the Skout. I posted it above previously but I deleted a couple of my redundant posts as to not hijack. Hoping more data comes out soon.

Skout - Skout Epoch Share and Discussion

I would like for this thread to serve as an owner's and inquiry page. I'll start with a basic parts strip. I received mine on Friday and had a chance to disassemble/reassemble today. I placed a 700cc tank on it and shot a string of 130 rounds of JSB 44.75 in .30 cal. at 900fps from 4000 psi...

www.airgunnation.com

 

[Airfuture]

Yes. I have the .30 Delta with the new-ish Super Valve or whatever it’s being called now (Fast Flow?) I have a 580cc bottle on mine and get about 40 shots at 85 FPE. That’s the JSB 50.1 pellet at 875 fps.

This is realistic, but why does Daystate provide inaccurate and misleading information? I can not believe

 

[Centercut]

This is realistic, but why does Daystate provide inaccurate and misleading information? I can not believe

Same as every other manufacturer. They say “up to” for number of shots and for power. Yes, if you shot a 44.75 pellet at 840 fps or a 50.1 pellet at 795 fps you might get 80 shots. It’s not just Daystate, ALL manufactures do it… Yes, even Skout.

 

[Headshots]

At least FX is nice enough to include shot count and at what fps.

Sniper:
5,5 (.22):

≈ 270 shots with 18,1gr pellet @ 860fps

 

[Motorhead]

You guys could just do the math on the figures given. It’s about 1.30 fpe/ci. That’s a respectable efficiency…but with a 40fps spread and SD of 7. If the gun was tuned to get the SD down to a competition reasonable 2-3, it will use a lot more air. As a general rule…if the gun has a long barrel and it’s loud, it’s not efficient. Efficient guns are comparatively quiet.

That said….It’s likely that 99 percent of those that buy this gun only care about the shots per fill, and not the actual efficiency.

Mike

That would put me in the 1%
Should have my SKOUT this coming weekend ... let the journey begin

 

[broekzwans]

“Bar per shot” is not a measure of efficiency.
“Shots per fill” is not a measure of efficiency.
“Liters of air per shot” is close, but only if you also factor in FPE.
Power per standard cubic inch of air, or FPE/cu-in is the general idea for efficiency. In a nutshell, how much air the gun uses for a given FPE (power).

FPE/cu-in is a normalized value to FPE -> also not a measure of efficiency but an easier value to compare multiple energies/calibers/barrel lengths etc. Actually by comparing air consumption based on the same muzzle energy the FPE in that number becomes irrelevant. The actual efficiency must be calculated by comparing the produced energy (muzzle energy of the projectile) with the stored energy in the released air but that will go too far for most Maybe if I find the time for it I'll give it a shot someday.

But back to the EPOCH. For those who have one already, what do you think of it?

 

[broekzwans]

I’m wondering if there is any way to determine what the dwell setting should be for a given barrel length? My Epoch came with the dwell set to 23ms, which was definitely wasting air. I dropped it to 19ms and did not lose any velocity, but haven’t experimented much beyond that. I’m looking to make this gun a lot quieter, and excess air was/is a huge contributor.

I'm also thinking about that. Need to go to the US for work for a few weeks so I won't be able to do it soon but I was planning on mapping what each setting will do and what you can expect from it. I already found that if I make the dwell time very low it won't open the valve anymore but so far I've only played with dwell a little bit and the HP reg

 

[Motorhead]

Another item on my mind that someone who has been into there SKOUT may have info on ? Or SKOUT will reply ?

Solenoid places a puff of LP air between the rear of poppet stems large piston and sealing collar making valve open ....
Then upon discharging a pulse of HP air travels down poppet stem and gets in behind the large piston forcing it to close ....

** So my inquire ?
The LP air that is in place while valve is open, what becomes of it ? Is there a bleed hole somewhere ?
When the HP gets on opposing side of the Stems piston indeed it overpowers the present LP on the other side forcing a closure.
But if the LP is not vented out, soon as the poppet closed it would open the valve again .... see where I'm going here ?

I understand kind of a DEEP question ... But a valid one too.

 

[Airfuture]

PCP Efficiency – What Is It? – What Changes It? - Hard Air Magazine

When I first started looking at PCP efficiency, I discovered a term called bar-cc per FPE. This measureshow much air a PCP uses to produce FPE of energy.

hardairmagazine.com