Please, someone explain to the makers of Epoch what plenum means, because here you can clearly see that it is small for .22 and imagine for .35!...
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Inside the Skout Epoch
- Thread starter Airfuture
- Start date
The Epoch doesn't rely on its plenum to supply its power. For example here us a typical string from my .25 prototype
The Epoch doest rely on its plenum size to generate power, rather it employs a large (HUGE by comparison) pneumatic valve to pop open and shut very quickly enabling it to be not only air efficient, but very precise.
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Okay, and why is it limited in power in each caliber??? If it had a choke, the energy would be even lower (I assume they don't have a choke because the coating on the aluminum barrel would be damaged quickly)
it is far from what can be used with such a valve, so a larger plenum and a higher working pressure of the plenum are the problem, because it is finally time that people can have 4.5mm and 7J or if they want 9mm and 400+ J, if they don't do that, they made a big defect!
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I’m confused… didn’t we see you taking first shots with a Skout? To be exact, didn’t you take two shots on video, and then have a malfunction or misunderstanding? Did you get a gun to critique, and have problems, real or imagined?
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How do you know it's air efficient?
I'm testing with mine now and indeed ES is very easy to get in the range of 1-2m/s so that's good!
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Plenum is the "Pre Chamber" feeding the primary valve for the shot yet to be taken.
It is not only the chamber shown in video, but all the passageway volume from regulator to the plenum.
It is a discoverer fact that Balanced valves / spool valves because of there near instant full flow characteristics can deliver near full plenum pressure behind a projectile instantly getting a hard launch !! Then shut down nearly as quickly as opened. Result is that of a spike power impulse and not a more drawn out Blow cycle of a conventional poppet valve.
In laymen terms, there power extraction from available pressure may exceed that of a conventional valve when the passageway ( Transfer ) is so large.
So ... less pressure required and hand in hand ... Less volume as well.
My take on it FWIW
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If you shoot a full fill from 300 bar down to your regulator setting, the shear number of shots speaks to the guns air efficiency.
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On another thought ... Regulators
In precision / match PCP's where LOW ES / SD values are wanted the Regs used are generally Very Slow recovery have extremely small seats / orifice for very accurate set point control.
* Known is that the Reg CAN NOT provide any more plenum air for the shot.
For years those wanting a Bottle on there PCP have used Paintball style regs, that by design are VERY FAST recovery having large seats / orifice with set point stability sacrificed for recovery to set point speed.
** Now the SKOUT is stating there regulator is something different ( They speak of adjusting ) tho that ability comes back to type seat used and how said adjusting has no effect on damaging it as is typical with regs as we know them in PCP's.
Perhaps being a Paintball roots company they perhaps have a reg design that is high flow / recovery and able to keep the plenum pressure up at or very near set point during the shot cycle ?
I honestly have no idea but it would make sense to be somewhat bias to that possibility
In precision / match PCP's where LOW ES / SD values are wanted the Regs used are generally Very Slow recovery have extremely small seats / orifice for very accurate set point control.
* Known is that the Reg CAN NOT provide any more plenum air for the shot.
For years those wanting a Bottle on there PCP have used Paintball style regs, that by design are VERY FAST recovery having large seats / orifice with set point stability sacrificed for recovery to set point speed.
** Now the SKOUT is stating there regulator is something different ( They speak of adjusting ) tho that ability comes back to type seat used and how said adjusting has no effect on damaging it as is typical with regs as we know them in PCP's.
Perhaps being a Paintball roots company they perhaps have a reg design that is high flow / recovery and able to keep the plenum pressure up at or very near set point during the shot cycle ?
I honestly have no idea but it would make sense to be somewhat bias to that possibility
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Don't recall what SKOUT produced video it was, but the company founder states his .30 cal with the Long barrel shooting IIRC low 900's is getting a 100 shots per fill. Again IIRC he states with the long barrel his reg is down 90bar or so. As I remember watching that Video ... if someone finds it, please post it with @ Time where it is so stated.
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That's where I disagree, that just shows how much air you have on reserve and how low you can go with the regulator pressure. I've actually measured the air consumption per shot of it and it shows it's not per se low.
In accordance with some simple physics and using the same muzzle velocity for different regulator pressures: higher pressures are more efficient, lower pressures are less efficient. Here's a test that shows the result of actual air consumption measurement:
This test reproduces for everything that I've tested so far. The numbers are of course different per caliber, muzzle velocity etc but the curves are the same.
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Although I agree with your statement on high vs low velocity air usage, an Impact is no more an Epoch than a camel is a horse. When you've done those tests on the Epoch, we'll talk again. I'd certainly be interested in some actual data.
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if you've read the text you see that I've already done the test, in the past also for multiple airguns and it reproduces for all the ones I've tested, this one of the impact was just the first I found and it can actually be used to compare to the EPOCH. To make it representative I've used the same muzzle velocity and pellets as what I did for the impact (muzzle velocity of 265m/s and standard JSB .30 pellets): air consumption is ±1.4 liters/shot in the EPOCH. This is so far based on adjusting the high pressure reg and playing with the dwell time. I still have to dig deeper to see if I find more ways to tune it down on higher pressures and try to actually get it efficient
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I respectfully disagree. There is NO OTHER air rifle currently on the market that can be compared to the EPOCH since it is the only one using a balanced hydrolic valving system. A comparison to a spring and hammer system is simply apples to hand grenades. When you actually get your data from an EPOCH I'll be happy to take an objective look at it. However, at the moment, my .25 cal EPOCH gets 20% more shots on a fill than my .22 RedWolf HP and 30+% more than my M3. While this isn't strictly a scientific measure, it is my own real world expetience with these actual guns. Since there are no scientists at my range, I'll hold to my previous conclusion drawn my own experience.
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It’s hard to say (compare apples to apples) as far as efficiency without knowing start and stop pressure, volume of supply (bottle), and FPE per shot. Almost all the Epoch videos we’ve seen show a 700cc bottle.
If I have a 580 bottle on this and my RW, and shoot my RW from 250 to 190 bar, and with same size bottle shoot the E from 250 bar to 90 bar of course you’ll get more shots. But which gets more or higher FPE/cu-in of air used?
It’s not the shots per fill, it’s the use of air for power we’d be comparing.
I haven’t seen those numbers yet for the Epoch. I’m sure someone will post them sometime soon. Standing by…
If I have a 580 bottle on this and my RW, and shoot my RW from 250 to 190 bar, and with same size bottle shoot the E from 250 bar to 90 bar of course you’ll get more shots. But which gets more or higher FPE/cu-in of air used?
It’s not the shots per fill, it’s the use of air for power we’d be comparing.
I haven’t seen those numbers yet for the Epoch. I’m sure someone will post them sometime soon. Standing by…
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Forgive me if I am wrong, the Redwolf HP has a 480cc bottle filling to 250 bar. Is the bottle on the Skout filling to 300 bar with 500cc? That would account for the more shots and not speak to the quality of the spool valve as demonstrably "better" or the more illustrative word thrown around "game changer." When I was at Shot Show two years ago I distinctly remember being told astronomical shot count capabilities above anything in the market, but to me from the looks of it, the Skout falls in line exactly where the big dogs do on shot count, depending on bottle sizes and tunes naturally. I don't have a fixed opinion on the Skout positive or negative, but I am forming one slowly.
I have a paintball store and dealer near me that has worked on both spool and poppet valves for years. What they have told me time and again (I go there for tank fills) is that spool valves are intrinsically less efficient. The other thing I've been told is that they wear orings out more and don't handle well in colder temperatures or temperature fluctuations as a whole (more leaks and breakdowns). I am not a paintballer and therefore have no experience with spool valves, but I don't see the design as intrinsically better simply because it is different, and I certainly don't think it is the apple compared to a granade.
Kind regards,
Atlas
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Yes, spool valves are less efficient than poppets as far as paintball markers.
The Skout should only be more efficient than other PCP designs because of the lower pressure need to achieve comparable velocities.
Lower pressure per shot means more shots per bottle..
The Skout should only be more efficient than other PCP designs because of the lower pressure need to achieve comparable velocities.
Lower pressure per shot means more shots per bottle..
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I am not confused that Skouts engineering goal with a lower pressure per shot will also benefit with more shots per bottle fill.
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