maybe a bi metal weight ? back half /front half ? or brass and nylon plus small buffer port ?
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N/A Inertia Assisted, Lightweight Top Hat
- Thread starter Sqwirl57
- Start date
what about the length of travel ? shorten the travel to the stop point ? heaver weight /shorter travel ? might = more weight less impact = no deformation ? ?
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this has been the best thread I've read in a long time.. thanks to all of you..
I'm still thinking that if you sized the weight just right, not too loose or tight.. so that it could travel with a lightweight oil, but not slam . sorry if like a port only allows so much to pass through and then I think you will need a light spring to return it after the shot cycle.. and then seal the back with a set screw and blue locktite.. that might work well..
we all could be reinventing the wheel, and hopefully it doesn't come back the same and hopefully it's not square.. but it's fun . as far as fishing, I used to enjoy it until I was working for a pump company and had to fish 200' lengths of pipe out of a 1000' deep well.. two days later anything called fishing didn't sound fun
if it had been named anything else.. getting lots of pipes and wire out of a very deep 6" expensive hole.. well I might still enjoy fishing.. but that was constant hard work and frustration.. I actually went home the first night and made a better tool to grab the end of the pipe 800' down..
Mark
I'm still thinking that if you sized the weight just right, not too loose or tight.. so that it could travel with a lightweight oil, but not slam . sorry if like a port only allows so much to pass through and then I think you will need a light spring to return it after the shot cycle.. and then seal the back with a set screw and blue locktite.. that might work well..
we all could be reinventing the wheel, and hopefully it doesn't come back the same and hopefully it's not square.. but it's fun . as far as fishing, I used to enjoy it until I was working for a pump company and had to fish 200' lengths of pipe out of a 1000' deep well.. two days later anything called fishing didn't sound fun
if it had been named anything else.. getting lots of pipes and wire out of a very deep 6" expensive hole.. well I might still enjoy fishing.. but that was constant hard work and frustration.. I actually went home the first night and made a better tool to grab the end of the pipe 800' down..Mark
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Thats kind of the great part. It's just Newtons 1st law of motion. On object at rest remains at rest until acted upon by an external force. The weight, not being attached to the top hat aside from some slight side friction, will remain in place when the piston is fired. It's not until the rear of the top hat catches it that it starts to move forward. Seeing as to how you typically cock the gun vertically, the weight drops into position every time you load the gun. I should note that while changing the front port to a smaller size, the rear port could remain a bit larger.
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I bought a HW 97 from Steven Hanson ....back around 2000?
He had a mercury recoil reducer installed at the butt stock. It was drilled at an angle and epoxied in place.
I don't remember how it grouped. It was a blue laminate stock...There were issues with the blue laminate stock de-laminating and I finally junked it and switched to a regular beech stock. Never salvage the mercury recoil reducer as I didn't feel like drilling a hole in the new stock.
It looks like someone is still making and selling these mercury recoil reducers for shotguns?
I know this is slightly off topic. Was wondering if anyone had experience with these type of recoil reducing system.
I'm assuming that it didn't help much ...since none of us are rushing out there to buy one and drill holes in our stocks.
He had a mercury recoil reducer installed at the butt stock. It was drilled at an angle and epoxied in place.
I don't remember how it grouped. It was a blue laminate stock...There were issues with the blue laminate stock de-laminating and I finally junked it and switched to a regular beech stock. Never salvage the mercury recoil reducer as I didn't feel like drilling a hole in the new stock.
It looks like someone is still making and selling these mercury recoil reducers for shotguns?
MERCURY RECOIL SUPPRESSORS, RECOIL REDUCTION, REDUCE RECOIL IN SHOTGUNS AND RIFLES
MERCURY RECOIL SUPPRESSORS, RECOIL REDUCTION, REDUCE RECOIL IN SHOTGUNS AND RIFLES
www.mercuryrecoil.com
I know this is slightly off topic. Was wondering if anyone had experience with these type of recoil reducing system.
I'm assuming that it didn't help much ...since none of us are rushing out there to buy one and drill holes in our stocks.
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just wondering where in the stock they drilled the hole.. seems like it won't affect the stock or looks if it could be drilled behind the but pad..
Mark
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so I have a serious question about experimenting with the top hat..
so I assume that recoil is generated from the spring being released..
I'd also assume that it is generated by the weight of the top hat/piston.. and I would also assume that the reverse recoil that used to be commonly talked about years ago destroying scopes, might be caused when the piston reaches the end of the stroke..
with all that in mind.. to get the highest velocity with the lowest recoil.. what would produce less recoil.
1 a lighter spring and heavy piston?
2 a heavy spring and light piston?
after shooting PCP and 22 rimfire, I don't think there's much recoil from the slug.. until you get launching bigger and heavier slugs.. not to say that there absolutely no recoil like if we put it on a vice attached to a scale.. just saying that it's got to have something to do with the pulling of the trigger releasing the spring and piston..
I don't have any idea how much recoil it causes when it stop at the end of the stroke..
will be interesting to hear from you all about your opinion or testing as far as what causes the most part of the recoil.. if that's determined by knowledge and testing then it would be easier to figure out how to reduce most of it..
also I understand that there's different size power plants and I read long time ago that without the proper balance between the resistance and power plant it destroys the gun.. like dry firing a spring gun..
also noted that dieseling destroys them.. but I suspect that is from the heat? as the seals are likely not rated for fire.. like piston rings in a diesel engine..
Mark
so I assume that recoil is generated from the spring being released..
I'd also assume that it is generated by the weight of the top hat/piston.. and I would also assume that the reverse recoil that used to be commonly talked about years ago destroying scopes, might be caused when the piston reaches the end of the stroke..
with all that in mind.. to get the highest velocity with the lowest recoil.. what would produce less recoil.
1 a lighter spring and heavy piston?
2 a heavy spring and light piston?
after shooting PCP and 22 rimfire, I don't think there's much recoil from the slug.. until you get launching bigger and heavier slugs.. not to say that there absolutely no recoil like if we put it on a vice attached to a scale.. just saying that it's got to have something to do with the pulling of the trigger releasing the spring and piston..
I don't have any idea how much recoil it causes when it stop at the end of the stroke..
will be interesting to hear from you all about your opinion or testing as far as what causes the most part of the recoil.. if that's determined by knowledge and testing then it would be easier to figure out how to reduce most of it..
also I understand that there's different size power plants and I read long time ago that without the proper balance between the resistance and power plant it destroys the gun.. like dry firing a spring gun..
also noted that dieseling destroys them.. but I suspect that is from the heat? as the seals are likely not rated for fire.. like piston rings in a diesel engine..
Mark
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I'm also curious about the relationship between the caliber and the bore of the cylinder.. and well length of stroke will be a factor.. too short of stroke I think will result in less power and too long of stroke the pellet will leave the barrel and then the piston will slam the end same as dry firing..
it very interesting to learn how everything works together..
Mark
it very interesting to learn how everything works together..
Mark
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so if you made a fixture to hold it in a drill press you could remove the but plate and drill it and it wouldn't matter if it was in or not because there would be no visible alterations to the visible part of the stock..
I have not looked into one, does anyone have a link to where they are available? hopefully they are sealed well and in a metal housing.. but if they are not expensive I'd like to put one in the hollow but stock on my gamo varmint shotgun 22 and see if it helps with the recoil.. not fun feeling old and getting sore easy.. can't shoot guns I'd like to.. I have fond memories of my rws 48 39+ years ago.. was a great 22.. I wish I could see a like slow motion video of the sled on the 52 recoilless model and know how well it works, but I don't want to buy a $600+ gun to try a few shots and then just put it in the closet..
I'm probably going to stick with PCP.. but I like the simplicity of a spring gun.
Mark
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I found some more sites selling them. They range from $140 to $62
For the Gamo plastic stocks...I assume their butt stocks are hollow? installation should be as easy as taping the mercury reducer inside the butt stock and filling the remaining cavity/spaces with expanding foam?
xlrindustries.com
www.brownells.com
For the Gamo plastic stocks...I assume their butt stocks are hollow? installation should be as easy as taping the mercury reducer inside the butt stock and filling the remaining cavity/spaces with expanding foam?
XLR Mercury Recoil Reduction Weight Kit
Improve your shooting with the XLR Mercury Recoil Reducer. Instantly reduce recoil and add weight to your rifle for enhanced performance. Designed for specific XLR buttstocks.
xlrindustries.com MERCURY RECOIL SUPPRESSORS, SUPPRESSORS THAT USE MERCURY, RECOIL REDUCTION, REDUCE RECOIL IN SHOTGUNS AND RIFLES
MERCURY RECOIL SUPPRESSORS, SUPPRESSORS THAT USE MERCURY, RECOIL REDUCTION, REDUCE RECOIL IN SHOTGUNS AND RIFLES
www.mercuryrecoil.com
C & H RESEARCH STANDARD STOCK RECOIL SUPPRESSOR | Brownells
Check out the C & H RESEARCH available Online at Brownells Today and many more Recoil Pads & Reducers products are available in our Gun Parts Department.
www.brownells.com Upvote 0
Back to the dead blow vs double hat comparison - Jon I’m in favor of keeping away from loose powders and liquids in your firing mechanism. Reason being they can move inconsistently and tend to settle with the heavy stuff down, which is both inconsistent and creates an unfortunate jamming moment when their container is induced to move. And high performing springers are all about perfect consistency of the internal movement.
I do suspect there is some difficult physics to stop a simple idea from producing a significant improvement but experimenting is always a worthwhile exercise in and of itself. Might be worth exploring an accelerometer to get a little data of the shot cycle to know what’s working and what’s not.
I do suspect there is some difficult physics to stop a simple idea from producing a significant improvement but experimenting is always a worthwhile exercise in and of itself. Might be worth exploring an accelerometer to get a little data of the shot cycle to know what’s working and what’s not.
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Recoil is a combination of mass and speed. Larger guns with more mass and stronger spring speeds will have the most recoil. There's no real way around it. Reducing speed or weight reduces recoil. It also reduces power. Lightweight pistons reduce weight but increase speed and invite excessive piston bounce which reduces efficiency (power).
Recoil is basically a result of power. The trick is to reduce the effects recoil has on accuracy. Much of this has to do with finding the right combination of springs, piston weight and projectile. Although it seems like this thread was initially about reducing recoil it was really about reducing piston bounce.
I can't say if barrel length and bore comes into play with the really big magnum springers. I don't mess with them. Most normal springers will have a seated piston before the pellet exits the barrel. Accuracy and efficiency is affected by piston bounce. Piston bounce occurs more often with the high start pressures of smaller calibers and heavy for caliber pellets. Pellet fit and skirt design change start pressures as well. A chronograph will tell you what is your most efficient combination of parts and pellets. Your targets will help you narrow down the field to the most accurate.
A dry fire creates detonation. Detonation is a very rapid and violent explosion. It's horribly bad for spring guns. At least my Weihrauchs. Excessive lube deliberately or mistakenly put in the compression area can cause detonation as well. The violent explosion from detonation instantly reverses piston direction which usually shortens spring life.
Dieseling is different than detonation. It's a slower somewhat controlled burning of lube from the heat of compression. Any petroleum lubed springer diesels at least a little bit. Too much lube or a damaged sealing surface can cause excessive dieseling. The additional heat from that combustion can destroy piston seals. Excessive dieseling is also bad for accuracy. I try to minimize dieseling to ensure accuracy. The trade off is I lose the additional power that even a mildly dieseling gun makes.
A springer is a seemingly simple device, but getting one really right can have you pulling your hair out.
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You had it right the first time. Its about reducing recoil with too light of a hat that would normally give some bounce, but mitigating that bounce by having the top hat change weight when it needs too (more or less). I think bounce has taken over the conversation a bit more because really that is the hardest part to figure out here
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I have to think about this. Recoil energy is basically mass and speed. Including a sliding weight doesn't necessarily remove all its mass from the equation. It may reduce felt recoil by dampening piston bounce and spreading recoil energy more evenly. Certainly a good thing that could improve efficiency and accuracy. I'm not sure if it would actually decrease overall recoil energy.
For instance adding weight to a rifle and sled systems reduce felt recoil but don't actually reduce recoil energy. The energy is the same but it's just displaced differently. I could be wrong and open to explanation.
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What about spring loaded to control the weights sliding / dampening spring ? Then that could help relieve the weight slamming at the end of travel ?
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spring most likely would introduce a whole 'nother problem . finding a spring the has the right dimension's and force ? Besides it was talked about already as you would cock the gun in an upright position and the weight would just fall back due to gravity .
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Well I brought it out to a friends 15yd indoor range today. I didn't get to shoot it a whole lot but I managed these 5 shot groups. I shot a few other groups but never snapped pictures. They weren't as good as these two though. Today was pretty rainy and windy so I couldn't really stretch it out much further. Group #3 pictured is 5 at 30yds. I'll try and get a full sheet of groups at 30yds next nice day out
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thinking about the sliding weight verses impact damage (brass example ). What if you shape the weight more like a internal combustion engine valve , spreading the impact point to a larger area? Less damage per SQ inch ?
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