HW97 K Accuracy
- Thread starter azscot
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One piece roop compensating mounts with 20 moa over adjustable rings that could eventually shake it self loose out of adjustment on a springer.
RWS lock down would be the cheapest.
Diana bulls eye mounts would probably be the best to protect a brand or model of scope that have instances of failures on springers.
The only Chinese made scope brand I would trust on a springer would be Vortex. Specifically the Cross fire 2 with front adjustable AO.
Further proof of failure.
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/refurbished-hawke-sport-optics-airmax-4-12x40-ao-rifle-scope-amx?a=7809
RWS lock down would be the cheapest.
Diana bulls eye mounts would probably be the best to protect a brand or model of scope that have instances of failures on springers.
The only Chinese made scope brand I would trust on a springer would be Vortex. Specifically the Cross fire 2 with front adjustable AO.
Further proof of failure.
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/refurbished-hawke-sport-optics-airmax-4-12x40-ao-rifle-scope-amx?a=7809
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I can only illustrate my own experience over 30 plus years. I read all the comments.
It is not your scope or mounts, I prefer a scope to be as low to the bore as possible, having said that this only effects the trajectory curve, not accuracy. It is not your scope. Some indicate that adjustable rings will vibrate loose, I have Sportsmatch Adjustable Rings on all my springers and I have never had one vibrate loose, however I do check all the fasteners once in awhile. I have never had an Airmax fail on any Springer including that hammer of a gun the Gamo Magnum. I suppose some do as any product can and will fail sometimes.
I had a .25 97 for a time, I was never happy with it and sold it. We all learn things the hard way most of the time, those heavy pellets that travel in the 500 fps range are simply too heavy for that gun and its designed spring power, to begin with you drop your FPE down to 10 to 11.5 pounds and the shot cycle slows so much you must have a perfect trigger pull and follow through each shot, it is not a forgiving gun. The best pellet in my copy was the Predator GTO. I could shoot an one inch group at 50 yards with it, provided I took my time and fully concentrated on each shot. The ballistic curve on that heavy .25 pellet at 50 yards with the rifle sighted at 35 yards was so extreme I was way down past the last mark using an Airmax 6 by 24 by 50 scope. I was in the guess it is here halfway down this little box situation. An extreme ballistic curve due to simply slow velocity. At 25 yards the distance you are shooting the GTO would shoot a ragged one hole. If.......if you had the perfect trigger pull and did everything correct. Even at that distance this is not a forgiving rifle.
My .22 HW97 shoots two pellets with fantastic accuracy. I have the scope marked for a quick return to zero when I change pellets. It shoots the 11.75 Predator GTO at 843 FPS and has a relative flat curve and will shoot paintballs at 60 yards and will consistently shoot one half to 5/8 group. It likes also the FX 18 grain and has the same accuracy, however it slows to 640 FPS and the ballistic curve is extreme at 60 yards and I am in the middle of the first lower square box with an Airmax Reticle. Also I average 16 to 18 FPE with the .22 which exceeds the .25 due to the velocity difference.
My .25 was never forgiving. It took extreme concentration to shoot it, where as the .22 is very forgiving as as long as you get a decent trigger pull it forgives all t he other things we as shooters tend to do.
Just saying as was my experience .
Cheers
Kit
It is not your scope or mounts, I prefer a scope to be as low to the bore as possible, having said that this only effects the trajectory curve, not accuracy. It is not your scope. Some indicate that adjustable rings will vibrate loose, I have Sportsmatch Adjustable Rings on all my springers and I have never had one vibrate loose, however I do check all the fasteners once in awhile. I have never had an Airmax fail on any Springer including that hammer of a gun the Gamo Magnum. I suppose some do as any product can and will fail sometimes.
I had a .25 97 for a time, I was never happy with it and sold it. We all learn things the hard way most of the time, those heavy pellets that travel in the 500 fps range are simply too heavy for that gun and its designed spring power, to begin with you drop your FPE down to 10 to 11.5 pounds and the shot cycle slows so much you must have a perfect trigger pull and follow through each shot, it is not a forgiving gun. The best pellet in my copy was the Predator GTO. I could shoot an one inch group at 50 yards with it, provided I took my time and fully concentrated on each shot. The ballistic curve on that heavy .25 pellet at 50 yards with the rifle sighted at 35 yards was so extreme I was way down past the last mark using an Airmax 6 by 24 by 50 scope. I was in the guess it is here halfway down this little box situation. An extreme ballistic curve due to simply slow velocity. At 25 yards the distance you are shooting the GTO would shoot a ragged one hole. If.......if you had the perfect trigger pull and did everything correct. Even at that distance this is not a forgiving rifle.
My .22 HW97 shoots two pellets with fantastic accuracy. I have the scope marked for a quick return to zero when I change pellets. It shoots the 11.75 Predator GTO at 843 FPS and has a relative flat curve and will shoot paintballs at 60 yards and will consistently shoot one half to 5/8 group. It likes also the FX 18 grain and has the same accuracy, however it slows to 640 FPS and the ballistic curve is extreme at 60 yards and I am in the middle of the first lower square box with an Airmax Reticle. Also I average 16 to 18 FPE with the .22 which exceeds the .25 due to the velocity difference.
My .25 was never forgiving. It took extreme concentration to shoot it, where as the .22 is very forgiving as as long as you get a decent trigger pull it forgives all t he other things we as shooters tend to do.
Just saying as was my experience .
Cheers
Kit
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Sqwirlfugger, seangabrell,
Thanks for the replies and suggestions. I put a Vortek spring kit in my R7 years ago and it was a PITA- had to make a spring compresser. Didn't want to have to get into that again if I don't have to.
One of the things I like about the 97 is that the cocking effort is reasonable. How much will it increase with a HO kit?
I just didn't realize how much more sensitive a 97 is compared to my R7/HW30.
Scot
Thanks for the replies and suggestions. I put a Vortek spring kit in my R7 years ago and it was a PITA- had to make a spring compresser. Didn't want to have to get into that again if I don't have to.
One of the things I like about the 97 is that the cocking effort is reasonable. How much will it increase with a HO kit?
I just didn't realize how much more sensitive a 97 is compared to my R7/HW30.
Scot
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Thumper
I originally just had the scope in Vortek extra high rings and it shot 8-10" low then. Plus the front of the scope was on the receiver, so the scope was as low as it could go. The ramp is to give the elevation (about 35 MOA) that I need to avoid using up the scope adjustment.
Scot
I originally just had the scope in Vortek extra high rings and it shot 8-10" low then. Plus the front of the scope was on the receiver, so the scope was as low as it could go. The ramp is to give the elevation (about 35 MOA) that I need to avoid using up the scope adjustment.
Scot
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KitCarson is exactly right. I never pick a caliber for my next airgun. I let the next airgun pick the caliber for me. Any consideration that shoots under 600 FPS, I go down a caliber. I want that optimal 650-800 FPS. Great firing behavior and optimal pellet speed for shot time and pellet flight. I think that 97 in .25 caliber can achieve 650 FPS. (not sure as .25 is not a caliber I have a lot of experience with) Anyone getting this out of their 97 in .25?
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Bear of Grayling
I have a strap on cheek rest coming for the R7. I'll try it on the 97 first.
After all the comments I decided to go back to basics and re-evaluate my hold, follow-through, bench rests, etc. Changing where I positioned the rifle on the rest today made a big difference. I hadn't realized how much more sensitive the HW97 is than my R7.
So I don't think that there is anything wrong with the rifle, just that I need to improve my shooting. I still get groups with 4 shots touching and then a flyer an inch away when I don't think I did anything different, but maybe I did.
If the HO tuning kit will reduce the lock time, then I can see where it would help. I don't think that there's much barrel time in a 12" barrel even at these velocities. I don't want to drastically increase cocking effort. I like being able to shoot 75-100 rounds without getting tired and I don't hunt.
Scot
I have a strap on cheek rest coming for the R7. I'll try it on the 97 first.
After all the comments I decided to go back to basics and re-evaluate my hold, follow-through, bench rests, etc. Changing where I positioned the rifle on the rest today made a big difference. I hadn't realized how much more sensitive the HW97 is than my R7.
So I don't think that there is anything wrong with the rifle, just that I need to improve my shooting. I still get groups with 4 shots touching and then a flyer an inch away when I don't think I did anything different, but maybe I did.
If the HO tuning kit will reduce the lock time, then I can see where it would help. I don't think that there's much barrel time in a 12" barrel even at these velocities. I don't want to drastically increase cocking effort. I like being able to shoot 75-100 rounds without getting tired and I don't hunt.
Scot
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KitCarson16
Thanks for your experience with your HW97 .25. It's funny that so far mine won't shoot the light pellets such as the 20 gr FTT. I know what you mean about ballistic curve with heavy pellets-at 50 yards there is a noticeable lag between the shot and the pellet hitting the backstop. It's almost like shooting my crossbow.
I hope I can get it to work for me. I have the .177 R7 for backyard plinking and wanted a bigger caliber to play with without going to a magnum or PCP; (I have one of those).
Scot
Thanks for your experience with your HW97 .25. It's funny that so far mine won't shoot the light pellets such as the 20 gr FTT. I know what you mean about ballistic curve with heavy pellets-at 50 yards there is a noticeable lag between the shot and the pellet hitting the backstop. It's almost like shooting my crossbow.
I hope I can get it to work for me. I have the .177 R7 for backyard plinking and wanted a bigger caliber to play with without going to a magnum or PCP; (I have one of those).
Scot
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That's good information. I was surprised at how low the velocities are with the HW97 .25. It sounds like a HO spring kit is in my future.
Scot
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I'll have to try the light Predator pellets. It doesn't like 20 gr H&N Field Trophy Target at this point but I haven't found the best combination at this point.
Scot
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The 97 is not hold sensitive. It’s the .25 caliber in the 97 that’s hold sensitive. A tune kit will not increase the cocking effort enough to even notice. It may not increase the velocity either. Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn’t. The firing behavior is what will be tamed. This will make it easier to shoot good groups. Leave your 7 alone until you have mastered the 97. When you eventually go back to the 7 you will not believe how forgiving it is. It’s one of the best springers made. Perfect harmony.
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I ordered the Vortek HO tuning kit for the 97. I'll report back after it's installed and I've put some pellets through it.
Scot
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I don't know how the JSB's you've tried compare to their Exact King pellets, but AoA recommended the King's to me when I had an over bored Beeman Kodiak .25 and they shot better than any other pellet I tried. In my case my barrel's rifling barely touched H&N pellets. The King's fit tighter.
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I have the 97 in .25, liked it so much in got the 77, which I never shot yet. Found it to be deadly accurate and a lot of fun to shoot. It’s spins my spinner targets more than the .177 and .22 97’s. In the winter you can easily see the trajectory with snow background. All the different calibres are interesting, depends on what your doing . Crow
Just came in from shooting the HW97 .25. This is a tack driver. My winter range is 100+ spinners hanging from trees 25 to 35 yds. away. Rarely missed, and if I did my mistake. I think it hits harder than .177 and .22. Definitely a keeper.
Just came in from shooting the HW97 .25. This is a tack driver. My winter range is 100+ spinners hanging from trees 25 to 35 yds. away. Rarely missed, and if I did my mistake. I think it hits harder than .177 and .22. Definitely a keeper.
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Thanks for the encouraging words. I'm going to keep the faith and continue working with it.
Scot
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I wasn't aware of the sportsmatch mount. Looks like a good option if the other things don't work. Maybe my problem with the rifle shooting so low will be reduced after I put in the tuning kit.
Scot
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I am a little confused as the high rings should have left about 1/8" clearance for the 50 mm objective. What high rings were you using? Thanks
HW95L with medium rings & 44 mm objective leaves about 1/8" clearance.
HW95L with medium rings & 44 mm objective leaves about 1/8" clearance.
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They were Burris rings:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000JWO7JY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Problem is, the rifle was shooting about 8" low at 25 meters, so I needed an elevation compensating ramp that put the scope up high.
I bought another set of high rings to put on the ramp. What I need to do is replace the high rings with low or medium rings to get the scope down.
Scot
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For those of you following or still interested in this thread, here's an update.
I installed a Vortek HO tuning kit and have put over 200 rounds through the rifle. Accuracy picked up immediately but I haven't chronographed the rifle yet to see how much velocity changed.
Front trigger guard screw is something I've experimented with, settled on 35 in/lbs; I think that's about 3 Newtons.
At 27 yards (25 m) with JSB 25.4 gr Exact King .25 I've averaged 0.6" (15.4mm) for 10 five shot groups. Most had a flyer, several had 3 or 4 cloverleafed. That was with 40 in/lbs of trigger guard force. Adjusted it to 35 in/lbs today and had 2 groups, 0.5" (12 mm) and 0.65" (16.5 mm). Both groups had flyers. Four of five shots on both were 0.35" (9mm), all touching.
I have found, as some of you mentioned, that the rifle is very sensitive to hold. I've found a very loose shoulder, barely touching, and relaxed grip to be best. I'm shooting off Caldwell sand bags and can maintain a steady POA. Since I have groups that are in my opinion very good for 4 shots, I think the flyers are variations in my hold rather than the rifle's accuracy. So 0.4" is probably a realistic size for a 5 shot group with a consistent hold and perhaps a better rest.
I haven't tried any position shooting (sitting and prone) so I don't know what hold will work best with them yet.
Thanks to all of you for your suggestions and help, especially Bear-of-Grayling. I'm satisfied that the rifle is accurate and I just need to perfect my hold. My HW30 isn't near as sensitive so perhaps practice with the HW97 will improve my performance with it.
AZScot
I installed a Vortek HO tuning kit and have put over 200 rounds through the rifle. Accuracy picked up immediately but I haven't chronographed the rifle yet to see how much velocity changed.
Front trigger guard screw is something I've experimented with, settled on 35 in/lbs; I think that's about 3 Newtons.
At 27 yards (25 m) with JSB 25.4 gr Exact King .25 I've averaged 0.6" (15.4mm) for 10 five shot groups. Most had a flyer, several had 3 or 4 cloverleafed. That was with 40 in/lbs of trigger guard force. Adjusted it to 35 in/lbs today and had 2 groups, 0.5" (12 mm) and 0.65" (16.5 mm). Both groups had flyers. Four of five shots on both were 0.35" (9mm), all touching.
I have found, as some of you mentioned, that the rifle is very sensitive to hold. I've found a very loose shoulder, barely touching, and relaxed grip to be best. I'm shooting off Caldwell sand bags and can maintain a steady POA. Since I have groups that are in my opinion very good for 4 shots, I think the flyers are variations in my hold rather than the rifle's accuracy. So 0.4" is probably a realistic size for a 5 shot group with a consistent hold and perhaps a better rest.
I haven't tried any position shooting (sitting and prone) so I don't know what hold will work best with them yet.
Thanks to all of you for your suggestions and help, especially Bear-of-Grayling. I'm satisfied that the rifle is accurate and I just need to perfect my hold. My HW30 isn't near as sensitive so perhaps practice with the HW97 will improve my performance with it.
AZScot
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