HW90 potential

More thoughts...
Why did my new HW90 give me recoil shock when I first got to using it? I mean, I was greatly tempted to flinch and I thought I was past those days -- haha!
It was that strong it actually hurt my shoulder sometimes. Why? So glad you asked! The whole gun weighs about 9lbs, 7oz, not 8 pounds something as in the ads. Others will confirm this. 6.5 lbs in the action and about 3 lbs in the stock. Now, when you have a stock which has a somewhat loose front to rear fit, it acts more like a light car getting rear-ending by a much heavier car. Imagine your heavy Lexus LS400 slamming into a stopped Kia at half its weight. What happens is the Kia will be launched like a still baseball being hit by the bat. The initial rearward recoil I felt was due to this phenomenon. Remember the old newtonian principle that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction and how we used to see the demonstration in school of those 5 hanging ball bearings to prove the point. The initial recoil of the 6.5lb action slams into the motionless 3lb stock and it, in turn, whacks the heck out of my shoulder. Now, after glass bedding the action to the stock, when the initial rearward jolt is launched by the forward piston release, the 3lb stock no longer acts like a separate thing. It is rather like having the baseball glued to the bat -- no whack, just added weight to slow down the action and reduce it's impact into your shoulder by spreading out the impact over time since it is moving slower, thus making more time. I can't yet prove it, but I think this slower rearward movement of the "glued" 3lb stock and 6.5lb action allows enough time that the opposite deceleration-induced shock of the piston slamming into the front of the receiver, which quickly reverses rearward shock to an instantaneous stop and then a strong forward jump, happens or starts WHILE the combined stock/action is still slowly moving rearwards, stopping most of the felt impact before it has time to impact your shoulder. So, two benefits to reducing recoil by glass bedding the action on a springer -- adding the weight of the stock to the action which slows it, giving the forward slam time to "catch-up" to the rearward recoiling stock/action glued combo AND in place of the stock acting like the baseball hit by the bat to then sting your glove (shoulder, in this case), it slows the whole thing down to feel less impactful. And in the case of the HW90, there is a serious gap just behind the receiver which allows the receiver to move rearward which is also why every single screw on my gun came loose and even loctite blue hardly worked, not at 26 bar pressure anyway. Now, I am very pleased with how the HW90 feels and it's giving me 24 ft lbs at the muzzle with the new Vortek piston seal. Still sounds a bit like a howitzer, however, so I wear ear protection when shooting indoors. I forgot one evening and only shot maybe 10 pellets, but my ears rang all night! Charles
 
Last edited:
Pretty neat! I spotted your HW90 video on youtube. I don't have a Youtube account so was unable to reply.

1. I'm very happy with my HW90. A little heavy but mitigated by installing a short HW95 carbine barrel and removing the inertia weight. I also mounted a Primary Arms red dot which only weighs 3.4 ounces.

2. Yes, the HW90 is the premiere tinkerer's gun. A real Theoben would be nice but I would be afraid to tinker. The HW90 has fairly good parts availability. I was able to order a HW90 cylinder from Krale when I was investigating barrel droop. It arrived in about 5 days. But that's another story.

3. I agree. Breakbarrels weigh less than underlevers. The HW90 is a 9 pound breakbarrel, which would be equivalent to an 10+ pound underlever. Essentially you get the same power in a lighter package. Look at the HW95 vs the HW77 or HW97. Same power plant but about a pound less weight. The tradeoff is possibly some loss in accuracy. .22 seems to be the best balance of power/weight/accuracy/ and cost. I have a .25 barrel, but don't use it because the pellets are harder to find and you don't get more power. Although the HW90 is one of the few piston airguns with enough power to drive a .25 pellet to useful velocities.

4. I saw the same piston seal burn marks on my new HW90. It came charged to 26 bar and was very difficult to cock. The question is if the burns were caused by dieseling or by regular use.

The stock seal is a 'parachute' design with a cavity around the rim. I think it binds against the cylinder bore at higher ram pressures. The Vortek seal has no cavity and the perimeter is relieved so it doesn't bear on the cylinder. It certainly improves performance. At 26 bar I got as high as 1300fps with a 9 gram H&N alloy pellet. That equates to 36 foot-lbs. Probably horrendous accuracy, but fun anyway.

After installing the 30mm Vortek seal and shooting 100 pellets at various ram pressures up to 26, I tore the gun down and found no burn marks. There was minor corrosion on the perimeter of the seal, but that may be break-in.

Here's the big question. There are other piston airguns with high power levels such as the Hatsans, ASP 20, Theoben Crow Magnum, etc. They don't have problems with burning piston seals. So why does the HW90 have a problem? I suspect Weihrauch's basic 90 configuration is designed for the EU low power market. For the US they merely increase the ram pressure and slap on a long barrel to make cocking easier. But the long barrel doesn't improve velocity at all, and cocking is not much harder with a carbine barrel.. They could produce a model tuned for US power levels with upgraded piston seal and a light weight carbine barrel but simply choose not to.

5. I'm definitely interested in some high quality schrader valves. I have two HW90's and would like a spare, so that's 3. Let me know what you want for them.

6. I had the same problem with screws loosening. I used loctite blue on the forearm and trigger guard screws, it seems to hold. I recently found (and bought) an original Beeman RX1/2 shop manual from Ebay. Interesting, it strongly recommends using loctite blue on all the screws.

7. I have never glass bedded a stock. However, I did install the brass cups on the forearm screws. IMHO Weihrauch stocks are not well fitted. My HW95 with the luxus stock shifted so much during recoil that the receiver impacted the front of the stock and actually cracked it. The HW90 trigger block serves as an anchor for the stock, but the HW95 has no such anchor point on the receiver. The HW95's primary fore-aft anchor point is the front trigger guard screw. I shimmed mine with some .005" shim stock. That reduced shift a lot. But that's another story.

8. I went with a Primary Arms micro red dot. The only problem is that I have slight astigmatism and get a star pattern when the eyes are tired. But you get a great field of view with a red dot.

It's interesting that Weihrauch doesn't put out a field pro version of the HW90 with a scope, carbine barrel and silencer. It would be very popular.

9. Yep. The HW90 is truly a tinkerers paradise. You get a sense of freedom when you can change the power levels at will. Mine is set at 19 bar which produces 800 fps with a Crosman .22 premiere. At 26 bar it generates about 31 foot-lbs.

My only criticism of the HW90 is the barrel droop which is built into the barrel-receiver joint. I found the same droop in both new HW90's. I even ordered a new HW90 receiver from Krale, but it had the same exact 0.5 degree droop, regardless of which barrel I put on it.

Weihrauch can make droop free guns: my HW95 field pro and my HW30 urban hunter have zero droop. I wonder if Weihrauch intentionally puts about 0.5 degrees of droop in their iron sights models, and zero droop in guns intended for scope use. I asked Krale if they could sell me an English carbine HW90, which comes with no iron sights holes in the barrel. They said it would take several months and was uncertain. I wrote a couple of English dealers and they said they can't ship to the US. Hmmm.

I would love a smaller gas-ram Weihrauch. I hope Weihrauch is listening.

I agree with your comments on the inertia weight. I think the weight initially slides to the back of the piston. Then, as the piston impacts the far end of the cylinder, the weight slides to the front of the piston and presses against it, helping to prevent piston bounce. But what do you really get? I took mine out and saw no difference in power or sensation of recoil. At a minimum, the energy wasted in moving the inertia weight back and forth is unavailable to drive the pellet. It also adds unnecessary mass to the gun.
 
  • Like
Reactions: scax
I’m glad to see somewhat of a revival of interest in the HW90. It’s the last vestige of Theoben’s ideas in a production gun, albeit in a Weirauch badge. The HW90 uses a similar gas ram design, perhaps even the same, as the Theoben Eliminator/Crown Mag. A while back I pulled the patents for the gas ram - I may have posted it on GTA. Anyways, the inertia dampener is supposed to function as a second blow to the piston head to reduce piston bounce and improve efficiency. It works much like a dead bounce hammer. If functioning properly it should reduce the amount of recoil and reduce backward suction. The inertia dampener may not be as effective at a high bar pressure, but the efficiency with it might be just as good at a lower bar pressure - worth investigating?

-Marty
 
  • Like
Reactions: scax
@scax

Did you test the accuracy of your gun before and after glass bedding? There are many claims in the powder burner world that glass bedding improves accuracy dramatically. Given the amount of vibration and the long dwell time of a pellet I’m inclined to think that glass bedding would have an even more dramatic impact on accuracy for a springer. Very curious to know what your results are!

-Marty
 
  • Like
Reactions: scax
Hello All,

I am excited to see this useful thread reanimated. Thanks for posting your experience with the HW90, Scax. I always learn something from reading about the trouble and successes people have had with this platform.

As for myself, I continue to occasionally tinker with the HW90 in the hopes of getting better performance. After switching barrels (from .177 to .22) my HW90 still had, in line with JayJay’s experience, a considerable amount of barrel “droop”. I addressed this problem with the offset Burris rings, and recently modified a dovetail to Picatinny rail adaptor by adding a stop pin, which allowed me to mount the scope a little closer to the bore. (I installed a set screw threaded into the adaptor and into a brass bushing that fits the stop pin hole diameter. Thought maybe someone could use this idea. See pictures.)

I am also running the HW90 at 19 bar, which is sending a 14.66 grain pellet at an average speed of 770 fps.

Blue locktite worked to keep the screws on my HW90 in place, even after removing and replacing them without any additional locktite.

Scax, I am also interested in one of your schrader valves, if you are still inclined to part with them. Is there a special tool required to replace the valve?

Anyway, Thanks to all who continue to educate me about the HW90.

Regards,
Airman

rail adaptor.png
 
  • Like
Reactions: scax
There have been several .20 RX2's for sale over the last few months. I bypassed them mainly because it's so hard to get .20 pellets. Maybe later I'll pick up a .20 barrel.
I just bought 5 more tins .20 yesterday. I’d jump on a RX2. I’ve had no problem getting them. Still haven’t shot the 90 .20. Soon. Crow
 
  • Like
Reactions: scax
Dear Gentlemen! Just recently awakened after being up most all night reading and after being blessed to be able to fix a new magnifying lamp..... just two wires that were never seated at the factory into their "click" connector slots and presto -- it lights up. So pleased to read all your great replies today! OK, let me answer.
1) To Jay and Airman and anyone else wanting one or more of my 8 "spare" Dill 302-DN schrader cores to replace the stock core on your HW90, may I suggest you simply PM me with your mailing information and how many you could use. Jay, you're in for 3 and Airman, you're in for 1, so that leaves 4 more available. I will then get your padded envelopes mailed. Once you receive them, just note the postage paid and you will have my PayPal email address to reimburse postage. The valves themselves are my modest gift to my fellow HW90 enthusiasts who can use them. Oh, and yes, you really do need a special tool to replace the valve core. The cheapest one which works well here is just $2.68 with free shipping if you have Prime: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0020T17J2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 It even comes with 4 cores, but those are for bikes and cars, not struts and guns.
2) So much to answer. Where to begin? Easy things first:
To Marty. Thank you about the history on the inertia weight. I will reply to that in better detail later. On accuracy, that is a delight to try to get the best possible. Yes, I did do pre-testing on accuracy, but no post-bedding testing, as yet. I am about to start that now. I still have some targets I shot before bedding at 25 yards. The results were interesting, but leaving much room to improve. I would do mostly 5 shot groups, and some 3. I was getting some doubled holes, then the next shots two inches away or even more! The first thing noted was the stock rear click sight vibrated loose. Then, the front sight did the same. Then, the front stock screws were loose. Then, the rear trigger guard screw -- loose. Then, the ...... you get the idea. With so many things vibrating loose, it was impossible to get any accuracy. Even my new rear Anschutz peep sight would move backward about 1/16" with every shot. I solved that one by gluing a cylindrical magnet inside a tiny steel sleeve bearing (4mmIDx6mmODx6mmlong) as there was a round hole in the Anschutz which matched up with the three scope-stop holes milled into the top of the receiver. Just dropped in the magnetic sleeve bearing and it locks this particular peep sight in place into the rearmost scope-stop hole -- solid and simple.
The accuracy was interesting in that I was getting those doubled holes -- it told me accuracy was possible, but then something would shift or change and the shots would go erratic again. My best pre-bedding 3-shot group was only a modest 3/4" ctc. Now bedded, I think the accuracy should jump up. I have about 5 different pellets to test including HN 21 grain Baracudas and 15 grain field target trophy. I also want to get some light Baracuda greens, but the present price in 22 is very high compared with .177 and .25. Lots to test here on that.
3) More replies a bit later -- need to eat just now.
Cheers and God Bless,
Charles
 
Last edited:
@scax

If my former Theoben is any indication then the H&N Baracudas might be the most accurate; they are the old Beeman Kodiaks. In regard to the proper function of the inertia weight, unfortunately its best operation can be dependent on the pellet. Different pellets will have different release pressures. If the release pressure is too low or too early in the shot cycle then the inertia dampener will do nothing or even make the shot cycle harsher due to additional mass. However, if the release pressure of the pellet is just right the piston will almost decelerate before the end of the tube and the weight should prevent it from bouncing back. My guess is that you have to tune the gas ram pressure to the pellet release pressure to get best results… I didn’t own the Theoben long enough to do so myself.🙁

-Marty
 
Made two cheap pellet traps today -- one indoor, one outdoor, but it's cold in KS today and had to turn the heat on for the first time this season today.

I used my large pellet trap indoors just now -- it's about 30 liters rubber nugget mulch, a couple shirts and some pants in a clear container -- seems to work great! Large, safe, heavy enough to stay put. The rubber does most of the stopping, aided by the clothes, but the clothes are there mostly to keep the rubber nuggets from falling out all over the floor as the main hole gets big and it's good. OK.

Well, no accuracy testing yet, but did play with ram pressure. Got it to where my pump said 26 bar, but not sure it's there as it still wasn't nearly as hard to cock as when I got this thing new. But look at these results: (all .22 caliber)
1. HN Baracuda at measured weight 21.3 grains (a little heavy), 5 shots: Vel: 740, 733, 733, 733, 739 fps = 25.63 ft lbs
2. HN field target trophy at measured weight 15 grains (also heavy). 5 shots: Vel: 960, 959, 957, 963, 959 fps = 30.7 ft lbs
3. Crosman Hollow Point at measured weight 14.4 grains (a touch heavy). 5 shots: Vel: 992, 999, 1002, 995, 1005 fps = 31.86 ft lbs.
My results are in line with what JayJay got, I think, but I think it's pretty impressive. JayJay said it takes a really light pellet to send the ft lbs up to 36 and I don't have any light pellets.
However, while my pump gauge said 26 bar, I don't think it's quite there as the cocking is too easy. I had to grunt to cock it at 26, but not this. Oh, and the once painful, wincing, knee-jerking recoil -- it's mostly gone and just feels good now. And my darn bolts and everything else seems to be staying tight now that the action's been epoxy bedded.
Soon, I hope to get it outside to see if can shoot straight using my peep sight and mega maga power! The cocking's ok, so I don't mind keeping the power up should that work.
Also, working on getting those good schrader cores packed up. If you haven't sent my your shipping info yet, please do so when you can -- no rush.
And I'll be packing one up with 1/2 oz of my fav lube in a nice gold container with clear window, because it cost it's weight in gold, haha. It's Krytox GPL-203 which I use alot, especially in all my guns. I'll include a nice 00 brush which I also use half the time for spot applications and simply dabbing my index finger to apply to large surfaces, like my HW90 piston and seals. I used a tiny drop on the moving parts with a new Mitutoyo vernier caliper -- made the action smooth as a baby's bottom. I did have to charge for the Krytox, but $20 and it should last the average user a long time. It has interesting properties which make it good for space travel. I got to know about it in the 80s when a gent told me to do this test: take two 1/4 inch bolts and nuts and apply your best moly grease to one pair and Krytox to the other. Then, put the moly nut and bolt in a big vise and squeeze the nut until you can't turn it with a wrench any longer. As the nut began to deform, it locked-up. Then, do the same with the Krytox'd nut and bolt. I could turn the bolt even though the nut had completely deformed into an oval. And that told me this is unusual stuff. I have to charge $20. shipped per 1/2 oz and brush should anyone else be inclined to give it a try.
4. Cold and rainy all day today which is rare here, but better weather coming and I hope to get in some 25 yard target shooting and hoping the power doesn't spray pellets all over the place. Charles
Below pics are new, silent pellet traps, just made today....
IMG_20221007_200349655(1).jpg
IMG_20221007_200414867.jpgIMG_20221007_200414867.jpg
 
I used my large pellet trap indoors just now -- it's about 30 liters rubber nugget mulch, a couple shirts and some pants in a clear container -- seems to work great! Large, safe, heavy enough to stay put. The rubber does most of the stopping, aided by the clothes, but the clothes are there mostly to keep the rubber nuggets from falling out all over the floor as the main hole gets big and it's good. OK.
I made a wood box out of 3/4" plywood. The front is 8 1/2" x 11", and it's about 8" deep. I fill it with rubber mulch. Then I tack a piece of cardboard over the front. It can take a couple hundred pellets before I have to replace the cardboard.

Well, no accuracy testing yet, but did play with ram pressure. Got it to where my pump said 26 bar, but not sure it's there as it still wasn't nearly as hard to cock as when I got this thing new.
I noticed the same thing. The original (new) HW90 was very hard to cock. After installing the Vortek seal things seemed easier, even at 26 bar. Maybe I'm just getting used to it.

But look at these results: (all .22 caliber)
1. HN Baracuda at measured weight 21.3 grains (a little heavy), 5 shots: Vel: 740, 733, 733, 733, 739 fps = 25.63 ft lbs
2. HN field target trophy at measured weight 15 grains (also heavy). 5 shots: Vel: 960, 959, 957, 963, 959 fps = 30.7 ft lbs
3. Crosman Hollow Point at measured weight 14.4 grains (a touch heavy). 5 shots: Vel: 992, 999, 1002, 995, 1005 fps = 31.86 ft lbs.
My results are in line with what JayJay got, I think, but I think it's pretty impressive. JayJay said it takes a really light pellet to send the ft lbs up to 36 and I don't have any light pellets.
However, while my pump gauge said 26 bar, I don't think it's quite there as the cocking is too easy. I had to grunt to cock it at 26, but not this. Oh, and the once painful, wincing, knee-jerking recoil -- it's mostly gone and just feels good now. And my darn bolts and everything else seems to be staying tight now that the action's been epoxy bedded.
I should try bedding the stock.

I got the same 26 bar results as you did, around 31 fps with a 14.5 grain pellet. I tried some shots with the .25 barrel and .25 H&N FTTs. The power was about the same as .22. Then I tried H&N 21 grain .22 slugs. They were about 29 fpe and 750fps. That's 1-2 fpe lower than the pellets. I think pellets naturally seal better, because the skirt flares out under pressure. So the slugs may let a little pressure slip past them. That would increase pressure in front of the slug and reduce the pressure differential, hence power.

I generally keep it at ~19 bar. That gets me just past 800 fps with Crosman premieres.

It would be interesting to test with a .177 barrel.


Soon, I hope to get it outside to see if can shoot straight using my peep sight and mega maga power!

Lol - Mega maga power. I'm with you.

The cocking's ok, so I don't mind keeping the power up should that work.
Also, working on getting those good schrader cores packed up. If you haven't sent my your shipping info yet, please do so when you can -- no rush.
I sent my contact info.

And I'll be packing one up with 1/2 oz of my fav lube in a nice gold container with clear window, because it cost it's weight in gold, haha. It's Krytox GPL-203 which I use alot, especially in all my guns.
I just checked Amazon. It's selling for $50 for a 2oz tube. I may pick up a tube.

I'll include a nice 00 brush which I also use half the time for spot applications and simply dabbing my index finger to apply to large surfaces, like my HW90 piston and seals. I used a tiny drop on the moving parts with a new Mitutoyo vernier caliper -- made the action smooth as a baby's bottom. I did have to charge for the Krytox, but $20 and it should last the average user a long time. It has interesting properties which make it good for space travel. I got to know about it in the 80s when a gent told me to do this test: take two 1/4 inch bolts and nuts and apply your best moly grease to one pair and Krytox to the other. Then, put the moly nut and bolt in a big vise and squeeze the nut until you can't turn it with a wrench any longer. As the nut began to deform, it locked-up. Then, do the same with the Krytox'd nut and bolt. I could turn the bolt even though the nut had completely deformed into an oval. And that told me this is unusual stuff. I have to charge $20. shipped per 1/2 oz and brush should anyone else be inclined to give it a try.

Sounds like it has very high resistance to shear when under pressure. Very interesting. But how is the viscosity under pressure?
 
  • Like
Reactions: scax
@scax

If my former Theoben is any indication then the H&N Baracudas might be the most accurate; they are the old Beeman Kodiaks. In regard to the proper function of the inertia weight, unfortunately its best operation can be dependent on the pellet. Different pellets will have different release pressures. If the release pressure is too low or too early in the shot cycle then the inertia dampener will do nothing or even make the shot cycle harsher due to additional mass. However, if the release pressure of the pellet is just right the piston will almost decelerate before the end of the tube and the weight should prevent it from bouncing back. My guess is that you have to tune the gas ram pressure to the pellet release pressure to get best results… I didn’t own the Theoben long enough to do so myself.🙁

-Marty
That's very interesting. To really test it, you would need a test bed with a variable air supply for the gas ram, and some acceleration sensors on the gun. The best range might be very small and hard to find.

The effect may also depend on the size of the relief hole in the dampener. An air cushion builds up forward of the dampener, which is then vented through the hole. You could put a tuneable valve in the relief hole. Lots of opportunity for experimenting.
 
Precision shooting is all about repeatability. Now, unless the inertia weight were repositioned to exactly the same spot inside the compression chamber before every shot, you would see many uncontrolled variables which would necessarily make it hard to maintain shooting accuracy, shot after shot. And my HW90 is presently doing great in the recoil dept since bedding the stock to the action and trigger guard.

True, a test bed would allow monitoring many aspects dynamically, but what does one really hope to gain? Comfort, accuracy, power? I do not wish to overly discourage, but I think it may be a rabbit hole without a purpose, if that's not being too harsh. Always willing to be proven wrong!
 
Precision shooting is all about repeatability. Now, unless the inertia weight were repositioned to exactly the same spot inside the compression chamber before every shot, you would see many uncontrolled variables which would necessarily make it hard to maintain shooting accuracy, shot after shot. And my HW90 is presently doing great in the recoil dept since bedding the stock to the action and trigger guard.

True, a test bed would allow monitoring many aspects dynamically, but what does one really hope to gain? Comfort, accuracy, power? I do not wish to overly discourage, but I think it may be a rabbit hole without a purpose, if that's not being too harsh. Always willing to be proven wrong!
I agree. Even if it was beneficial, the market is so small.
 
My usual Krytox has a low viscosity of 30 cSt at 40C temp, but that can be a good thing should a part move very quickly, like a piston where the oil component in the grease more readily creates a hydrodynamic wedge to protect and separate parts. Should I have an application requiring a high viscosity Krytox, I have Krytox LVP which has a viscosity of 740 cSt at 40C. It's a low vapor pressure grease used in high vacuum pump environments, but good for tinkerers, too.
 
Oh yes, Krytox GPL-203 is highly popular to those lubing keyboards and another reason I include the good 00 brush which has a tiny head that works well in that application as well as all tiny places I use Krytox -- I still manage to waste more than stays where I need it, but a little lasts so long. Another popular use is to lube and protect car window trim and sunroof glides. It's important to remove all traces of prior oils and greases. I tend to use brake parts cleaner as the last step ahead of Krytox application. However, pure moly disulfide powder works well combined with Krytox so long as you don't mind how it stains your clothes... haha.
 
Oh yes, Krytox GPL-203 is highly popular to those lubing keyboards and another reason I include the good 00 brush which has a tiny head that works well in that application as well as all tiny places I use Krytox -- I still manage to waste more than stays where I need it, but a little lasts so long. Another popular use is to lube and protect car window trim and sunroof glides. It's important to remove all traces of prior oils and greases. I tend to use brake parts cleaner as the last step ahead of Krytox application. However, pure moly disulfide powder works well combined with Krytox so long as you don't mind how it stains your clothes... haha.
There are many threads on GTA discussing Krytox. That said, My memory might be tricking me, but I think mixing it with other stuff causes early degradation issues.

-Marty
 
  • Like
Reactions: scax and fishing43