HW/Weihrauch HW50 , the challenge continues

[crowski]

I picked up this older beater HW50 8-9 months ago. Something to get some experience on. I tried repeatedly to put a spring in it, until someone mentioned a new model spring won’t fit in an older 50. Once with the proper spring, it was a piece of cake. Bet I tried that new spring 30 times over a few weeks.

Yesterday I brought it to the range. Shot at 25 yards the Center of a 12 inch plate. Swing and a miss. Hmmm. Aim for the top of plate. Swing and a miss. Aim for the bottom. Bingo. Barrel droop. Check this out.

I have no idea of this guns history. I’m wondering if the barrel was swapped out.
I don’t think the breach fits square.

I couldn’t adjust the sights down, even the adjustment screw seams wrong. Got it closer with an Allen key.

It shoots and sounds great. But I‘m stumped.
Is there an adjustment to make breach fit better?
Bend the barrel?
Any suggestions?
Crow

 

[beerthief]

the easiest option is to bend the barrel , carefully ! a little goes a long long way . MY HW30 looks the same @ the breach .

 

[A.G.R]

That’s breech hang up. The bottom area under the block need to be filed to let it drop to level it as well as may have to relieve the face a tad. Depends. It’s all by experiance And feel . Seals will need to be fitted to.

It happens mostly with barrel swaps as tolerances can carry and .05/+- mm can make a huge difference when the breech hits that flat area under the chisel detent

HW RARELY have barrel droop and mostly from fly ups while cocking.
You need to disassemble it check the breech for strait ness to barrel .. I use my granite counter top

Bending won’t fix a poor sealing lock up. Only slight material removal to fit the action will you can clearly see innthe pic the difference in the side pic of the breech line to fork gap.

 

[Mycapt65]

The droop is a non issue with both sights on the barrel. I'm pretty sure the adjustment screw is wrong. It looks too tall. Probably from a later sight. Stack washers between the adjustment screw and sight leaf until it works right. You might have a problem with the adjustment screw obscuring the notch.

 

[MDriskill]

Random thoughts:

1. Serial number is from 1972 or '73. The original HW 50 of 1950-1998 is a different gun from today's (first called the HW 99). The new receiver tube has the same exterior dimensions but the innards are much revised.
2. That's a crazy amount of barrel droop, I've been into a LOT of old HW 50's and 55's and never seen anything close.
3. Don't bend the barrel. Your pics look like the barrel aligns with breech block, so IMHO you are correct - the issue is how that breech fits. You really have "breech droop!"
4. Check first if the breech seal is properly seated. The gun may have had a leather seal that was not completely removed before sticking in one of the current plastic ones, or some such. If the seal is OK, you may be right about its having a barrel/breech block from another gun (see pics below).
5. An HW that old will have 13mm spacing on the scope grooves. The original piston seal was leather.
6. Back in the day, those simple sights were typically seen on a base model with the simpler Perfekt trigger. That could indicate either the barrel is not original, or the Rekord trigger was a post-factory add.

Mycapt65 is correct, a little droop shouldn't matter per se. But with such a severe misalighment, at 25 yards the wild disagreement between trajectory and sights might be very low velocity from the transfer port not fully aligning with the bore?

Can you post a pic of an open breech? The seal should protrude only a few hundredths of an inch.

A 50 that old may have part of the serial number under the breech block, if so that will immediately show whether it's original to the action.

 

[crowski]

the easiest option is to bend the barrel , carefully ! a little goes a long long way . MY HW30 looks the same @ the breach .

Thanks. Thought of this but thought to ask the gun geniuses first. And glad I did. Crow

That’s breech hang up. The bottom area under the block need to be filed to let it drop to level it as well as may have to relieve the face a tad. Depends. It’s all by experiance And feel . Seals will need to be fitted to.

It happens mostly with barrel swaps as tolerances can carry and .05/+- mm can make a huge difference when the breech hits that flat area under the chisel detent

HW RARELY have barrel droop and mostly from fly ups while cocking.
You need to disassemble it check the breech for strait ness to barrel .. I use my granite counter top

Bending won’t fix a poor sealing lock up. Only slight material removal to fit the action will you can clearly see innthe pic the difference in the side pic of the breech line to fork gap.

Thanks. I suspected a switch.
What you say makes sense. I will try that when I get a chance. Crow

 

[crowski]

The droop is a non issue with both sights on the barrel. I'm pretty sure the adjustment screw is wrong. It looks too tall. Probably from a later sight. Stack washers between the adjustment screw and sight leaf until it works right. You might have a problem with the adjustment screw obscuring the notch.

Both sights on barrel, makes sense.
Your right. It bottoms out premature. Washers will look better than a wench. Thanks Crow

Random thoughts:

1. Serial number is from 1972 or '73. The original HW 50 of 1950-1998 is a different gun from today's (first called the HW 99). The new receiver tube has the same exterior dimensions but the innards are much revised.
2. That's a crazy amount of barrel droop, I've been into a LOT of old HW 50's and 55's and never seen anything close.
3. Don't bend the barrel. Your pics look like the barrel aligns with breech block, so IMHO you are correct - the issue is how that breech fits. You really have "breech droop!"
4. Check first if the breech seal is properly seated. The gun may have had a leather seal that was not completely removed before sticking in one of the current plastic ones, or some such. If the seal is OK, you may be right about its having a barrel/breech block from another gun (see pics below).
5. An HW that old will have 13mm spacing on the scope grooves. The original piston seal was leather.
6. Back in the day, those simple sights were typically seen on a base model with the simpler Perfekt trigger. That could indicate either the barrel is not original, or the Rekord trigger was a post-factory add.

Mycapt65 is correct, a little droop shouldn't matter per se. But with such a severe misalighment, at 25 yards the wild disagreement between trajectory and sights might be very low velocity from the transfer port not fully aligning with the bore?

Can you post a pic of an open breech? The seal should protrude only a few hundredths of an inch.
View attachment 572742

A 50 that old may have part of the serial number under the breech block, if so that will immediately show whether it's original to the action.
View attachment 572757

No serial number.

Thanks Crow

 

[Silver Ace]

it looks like something may have happened to the breech jaws. Notice the way the light reflects differently where it meets the spring cylinder? Not sure if this has anything to do with the barrel droop or not.

 

[MDriskill]

The sight elevation screw looks to be about the right size (should be about 11mm tall per pic below), but it's not threaded into the breech block at all? Possibly it's a new replacement for an older original - HW sights typically sit much lower than that. I don't know...weird.

 

[A.G.R]

The sight elevation screw looks to be about the right size (should be about 11mm tall per pic below), but it's not threaded into the breech block at all? Possibly it's a new replacement for an older original - HW sights typically sit much lower than that. I don't know...weird.

View attachment 572872

Raising the sight will never correct the issue at hand. The breech block is misfit. Not original. Many older guns don’t fit newer breeches. Until it’s machined relieved and squared and leveled. It will be un accurate and un predictable as the breech seal is not fully seated. Which it self will need to be addressed too.


is it worth it all. Maybe, maybe not. That’s up to the owner. You need to know how to do it first and fore most.
There will be some bluing touch ups.

 

[Mycapt65]

it looks like something may have happened to the breech jaws. Notice the way the light reflects differently where it meets the spring cylinder? Not sure if this has anything to do with the barrel droop or not.

View attachment 572848

The forks are machined separate and then brazed into the comp tube. What you see there is the normal seam between the two parts.

 

[specie]

The rear sight on your gun is not Weihrauch, but from a lesser airgun, without windage adjustment.
The rear sight appears bent upwards?
The elevation screw is original to a Weihrauch, in good order
The barrel your gun is almost certainly original to the gun, with the less sophisticated front sight/dovetail cut across the barrel appropriate to a pre safety HW50S of that period.
I'd run a straight edge on the breech block upper surface, or remove the rear sight and seat a flat plate on the breech block surface and verify that the barrel is almost certainly bent downwards?
It looks like a pre safety gun that's been used a lot, but not abused...don't know why the barrel would be bent down???

 

[KWK]

Has some droop for sure. A lot of older HW do. Remember, vintage Beeman rifles specified barrel angle for scope use. At any rate, aren't you going to scope it anyway? And remember, it might have 13mm dovetails. Check. I think they went to 11mm in '75. I don't know what you want to do about the droop. Several ways to remedy that. Maybe you'd want to invest in a HW aperture sight for it.

 

[Ievgen721]

The barrel looks like not from this rifle, although it is about the same age as the rifle. I don't think you can repair it yourself, such problems are usually solved in a workshop, I know from H&R rifles with replaceable barrels. Remove the barrel and check for a homemade bushing.

 

[MDriskill]

Raising the sight will never correct the issue at hand.

Per the original post, the problem with the sight is that it won't go LOW enough (he had to aim at the bottom of the big plate to hit the center, then he wedged down the sight with the allen key!). Again, it looks as if the elevation screw just isn't engaged in the breech block's threads.

 

[Silver Ace]

The forks are machined separate and then brazed into the comp tube. What you see there is the normal seam between the two parts.

I thought maybe it was triggered off and the forks got bent, but looking at the other pics they seem fine.

 

[MDriskill]

The rear sight on your gun is not Weihrauch, but from a lesser airgun, without windage adjustment.

(EDITED)
No, it's a correct HW sight, used on less expensive models back in the day. Note how the front of it fits correctly into the wide longitudinal slot on the breech block - and BTW it does have a simple "screw'n'slide" windage adjustment. But oddly, the distance between the two screw holes might be a tiny bit off. That would explain why the elevation screw won't align with the breech block's threads.

It couldn't hurt to find a newer HW sight with windage adjuster to replace it, though.

 

[Ievgen721]

The rear sight is unusual, but the way that the front of it fits correctly into the wide longitudinal slot on the breech block looks like an original HW part. But you might be right - if the distance between the two screw holes is off, that would explain why the elevation screw won't align with the breech block's threads.

It couldn't hurt to find a newer HW sight with windage adjuster to replace it, though.

The rear sight is most likely missing its back part. The rifle clearly has a misaligned barrel, the sight has nothing to do with it, there will be a large spread in any case. Bending the barrel will also not lead to anything good.

 

[Mycapt65]

I thought maybe it was triggered off and the forks got bent, but looking at the other pics they seem fine.

I guess it's possible to damage the forks by triggering off but that's a low powered gun and I've seen a few higher power guns triggered off that broke and bent everywhere else but there. Some of Weihrauch's fork plug installations are less than elegant. Internally they can be down right ugly but they're generally very strong.

 

[MDriskill]

Another idea on the ill-fitting breech block - I've actually seen this one before!

If the gun has been triggered off at some point, that can bend the long cocking link. This makes it slightly shorter, and prevents the breech from fully rotating back into its fully-locked position.

A non-standard piston - or one with a longer-than-original seal on the front, etc. - can cause a similar issue.