hunting,temp change, and valve lock

karl_h

Member
Aug 11, 2020
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When I got my texan 357 several years ago I got it just to do something different deer hunting. I tried many bullets, including for grins trying jacketed bullets(that's another thread) and settled on Hornady's 158gr semi wadcutter cowboy bullet balancing cost/accuracy/availability. It is a swaged lead bullet, knurled and lubricated, and works very well in my texan with a fire lapped barrel. Shooting off my front deck I settled on a 3100 psi fill and get two shots that are within 5 fps of each other. I use a Labradar and typical two shots are 906 and 903, if I am just a touch below 3100 it typically shoots 908 and 900, a touch over 3100 and it typically goes 903 and 902-904(valve lock starts happening around 3120 and is very sensitive to even 10 psi at that point. By 3150 psi or a smidge over, it is in the mid 600's fps. One thing I never thought about was the temperature in my house where I fill my texan when going hunting, and the temperature while I'm hunting. My very first day taking it hunting several years ago the temperature was 64F when I walked out of the house at 5am. Around 1 pm temperature was up to 87F and I was about to walk back to the house and have lunch when a coyote trotted down the draw below me. I never pass a shot on a coyote, even a bad shot, they are non native here and decimate the turkeys and do a number on the fawns. I don't care where I hit them, I will take any safe shot with whatever I have on me when I see one. So I take a shot at 40 yards on a trotting coyote in the brush and the texan goes BLOOP, almost zero recoil. WTF!!! was my reaction. I sat there stewing for several minutes and looked at the pressure guage, it was clearly at the point of valve lock close to having a slug stuck in the barrel. That actually made me feel better as I thought the rifle may have broken. There was filtered sunlight where I was sitting on the ridge top and that had warmed up the bottle even more than the ambient temperature. I walked to the house, got on the internet and found the math for pressure change in air vs temp. P2=(P1 * T2) /T1 where pressure is in pascals and temperature is in kelvin. Did the conversions and the math and had my answer. I have to fill the texan according to the temperature range I expect when hunting and protect the bottle from sunlight, and often that means only one good shot until the temperature climbs as I'm hunting and only 1 shot if temperature falls enough while hunting. One shot doesn't bother me, other than crop damage shooting I did in Va. back in the 80's I can count on 2 fingers the number of times in 40+ years of deer hunting the number of times I took more than one shot. Other than crop damage shooting, twice in over 40 years I have shot 2 deer back to back and I have never shot twice at the same deer.

I filled the texan that morning in the house to 3100 psi at 75 F, at ambient temp of 87F when I took the shot the pressure would have been up to 3170 which would be getting into serious valve lock on my tune probably less than 400 FPS from my testing, with the filtered sun on the black bottle assuming 100F the pressure would have been up to 3244 which would have left the slug in the bore so the filtered sun did not get the bottle temp up that high. With my firelapped barrel and sized slugs, getting a slug stuck in the barrel is no big deal, it pushes out easily. I don't recall ever reading about filling according to temperature range expected when hunting, and protecting a bottle from being in the sun while hunting. Live and learn.
 
Wow, I wouldn't have guessed that your valve opening would be so sensitive to just an additional 20-50 psi. That's only 0.6-1.6% over your target fill pressure of 3100! I think I would try retuning with lower fill pressure and slightly lower hammer energy such that the first 2-3 shots show some semblance of a curve, where the second shot is equal to or slightly faster than the first, rather than just falling with each shot.
Maybe you could experiment with a slightly weaker valve return spring and appropriately rebalanced hammer energy.
If this can't be done, perhaps add a bleed screw and a gage port so that you can avoid valve lock in hot conditions.
If the pressure falls in the field, you could use the added pressure gage and a dope chart to modify your holdover based on initial charge pressure and range.

Just some ideas, good luck.

Feinwerk
 
I don't want to lose the energy doing that, I tried. I don't remember exactly what the numbers were but I wasn't going there. I'm a big fan of 158 grain wadcutters and semi wadcutters, probably because the first 5 deer I ever shot decades ago were with a warm but not hot loaded 6" S&W 38 special and hard cast 158 grain semiwadcutters back in Virginia where the deer get a lot bigger than here. 357 is more than a big enough hole through the lungs for a clean kill, don't need any expansion. Always clean pass throughs, good blood trails on broadside double lung shots out to 60 yards and up to 240 lb live weight on the ones I shot back then. And as it turns out, the bullets I use are the third most accurate I tried out of a couple dozen. The most accurate I tried was a jacketed bullet, 147 gr hornady 9mm xtp, powder coated them to get size up and run through my sizer to set to what my gun likes. I didn't like the pain in the arse it was to powder coat them, and when running through the sizer I'd make two piles, one for plinking/fun and one for shooting for real, had them running just over 920 fps and could shoot 3 shot groups with them with about 9 fps ES. About 25% of them didn't really take much pressure to run through sizer and on those accuracy suffered so they went in the plinking pile. Not to mention they expand like crazy, I doubt they would exit a decent deer shot broadside through the lungs. They would be great for varmint hunting though. Shot several pests with them and one critter I was going to eat. Rabbit at about 125 yards had huge hole on exit, I ate the legs on him. Feral cat at near 90 yards massive exit, 8 or 9 lb ground hog that was digging around my barn making a mess shot in the chest standing at 75 ish yards and out it's spine, made a mess. Coyote running accross bench at far end of my barn just as I was setting up for some target shooting let one fly 130 yards, rolled it and he turned back using one rear leg half arsed and back into woods. Hit him in the hip, broke both rear legs and did not exit. He was at bottom of draw behind the barn, technically still alive but unconcious 10 minutes later when I got to him, 22 in the brain.

This is what the xtp does in a 4 foot long 6" sched 40 pvc at 90 yards, bullet entered as near to perfect in center, plastic grocery bag strapped over entrance side to hold in water, rubber test cap on other end held on with screw hose clamp. Had it resting on the lifting forks on back of tractor held down with bungee cords. Over 16 lbs of water, blew entire pipe off tractor forks, blew out rear test cap and water spray everwhere.

9mm XTP exploded 6 inch pvc.png
 
Cheplicki, I don't know what you call the little plastic piece on the shaft of the valve stem, but mine split and I haven't got a new one for it yet. With the replacement rifle I got from airforce, they also sent a new tank with the new valve in it which is the one I've been using. I took the original tank and valve and did exactly what you suggested. The old valve with the spring removed doesn't get up to what the new valve with spring is, it's over 20 fps slower. I've sent email to airforce on several occasions to get that replacement plastic piece and I never get a response. On the old valve the plastic piece looked to be identical and in trying to remove it to use on the new design valve it broke. Whenever I get a replacement, I intended to try exactly what you suggest.
 
Wow, I wouldn't have guessed that your valve opening would be so sensitive to just an additional 20-50 psi. That's only 0.6-1.6% over your target fill pressure of 3100! I think I would try retuning with lower fill pressure and slightly lower hammer energy such that the first 2-3 shots show some semblance of a curve, where the second shot is equal to or slightly faster than the first, rather than just falling with each shot.
Maybe you could experiment with a slightly weaker valve return spring and appropriately rebalanced hammer energy.
If this can't be done, perhaps add a bleed screw and a gage port so that you can avoid valve lock in hot conditions.
If the pressure falls in the field, you could use the added pressure gage and a dope chart to modify your holdover based on initial charge pressure and range.

Just some ideas, good luck.

Feinwerk
I was thinking about your reply and really it doesn't matter. It is really a big issue with regulated air rifles too. Both my 22 uragan and 25 cricket when left outside and air temp rising will shoot very low on first shot, the pressure in the plenum has raised due to temp rising and the guns are tuned for expected air pressure. On the uragan, a 15 ish degree rise in temp while rifle is sitting outside will lower first shot nearly 300 fps. Missed many a squirrel in pecan trees because of that until I figured it out. I now just fire a shot in the ground first if I go outside and squirrel is in one of the trees, then shoot the squirrel. It's not a creeping regulator at all, I can take the rifle from the house after not shooting for weeks and first shot is dead on. Only when left outside in rising temperatures.
 
To slippery bullet ie to little backpressure.
Harder hammerspring or heavier hammer, maybe both!

The bullets in my .50 Texan has to be hammered through the barrel with a mallet if not shot out with air, and i get close to 900fps with a 450grain bullet.

The less resistance from the bullet the shorter time the valve stays open before being shut by rushing air from the tank.

Are you able to chamber two bullets one after the other?
Try filling to max and fire those two bullets. You'd be suprised ;-)
 
To slippery bullet ie to little backpressure.
Harder hammerspring or heavier hammer, maybe both!

The bullets in my .50 Texan has to be hammered through the barrel with a mallet if not shot out with air, and i get close to 900fps with a 450grain bullet.

The less resistance from the bullet the shorter time the valve stays open before being shut by rushing air from the tank.

Are you able to chamber two bullets one after the other?
Try filling to max and fire those two bullets. You'd be suprised ;-)
Sorry, but no. After firelapping the bore, I had to or else send the second new texan back to airforce for another replacement and start with a third rifle, and I honestly don't think they would have gone for that and said the barrel is fine. Along the same lines, I've got a really pretty Belgium Browning BLR 7mag that browning says is perfectly fine I'll sell you for 1k, they only chambered it with a worn out reamer and it's not salvageable, but they had it and said it is perfectly in spec and would not re-barrel it, been a safe queen for decades. The bore on the Texan was the worst piece of crap I've ever seen in my life, borrowed a friends 5k dollar borescope. After firelapping, I started testing with one bullet, one fill pressure, one shot at a time. At .358 bullets are slowing down a lot, and accuracy is blah. Anything below .357 is slowing down a lot and the word accuracy belongs nowhere in this sentence. Working my sizer up and testing the rifle with the same bullet that initially was sized at .358, actually I think they were 1/10,000 over that. I got to the point my sizer was setting them at .3575 and velocity and accuracy were way up. At that size vs the same bullet at .3581, group size cut in half almost from 3.5 ish inches at 110 yards to 1.8+ and velocity was up just over 20 fps when sized to .3575. Those bullets were much to hard really for an air rifle, I'm surprised they shot decent after being sized correctly, I think they are 15 BNH. I'm either at the perfect size for my bore, or within +/- .0001. The swaged pure lead Hornady cowboy bullets I currently use exclusively, come out of the box anywhere from .3573 to .358, why a swaged bullet has so much variance I don't know. To be fair, randomly pulling 19 out of 20 are .3579 to .358. Out of the first box of 500(probably on my 7th or 8th box now) I measured every single one, only about 15 were smaller than .3579 They are supposed to be .358. If I shoot the hornady cowboy bullets without sizing, my ES grows by nearly 20 fps , and accuracy decreases by way over 1 inch. Run them through my sizer at .3575 and they are great. I don't measure them anymore, just by feel going through sizer I toss some out.

As far as chambering two bullets, no. The rifling stops that from happening. Before I firelapped the barrel, a full wadcutter wouldnt go in the breach 1/100 of an inch without herculean effort and tools. After firelapping I can get SWC's I've sized to almost have the base of the bullet even with the breach, full wadcutter sticks out a little more 1/10" but less than 1/4"before it stops dead, basically the length of the nose on the Semi's.
 
I actually don't care about it enough to make any changes. I'm ok with one shot hunting, the current power/accuracy, and two shots before refilling when shooting targets. Besides, I always have a powerfull handgun with me anyway. Once I had settled on the bullet I was going to use, I ran a test over a couple weeks I do with my most accurate PB's. Set up a target, shoot two rounds, in case of PB's that is cold bore shot and follow up, and do this several times a week at different temps with rifle/ammo outside at least an hour prior to shooting. With the Texan the temps ranged from upper 30's to 90. I do this until I have 20 rounds on target. In the case of my Texan I topped of just before shooting, that gave me a 20 round group of 2.05 inch group, one called flyer, one not called flyer. Subtracting my called flyer it was 1.7 inch group, makes no sense to subtract other flyer since it was a good trigger break and follow through but it would be quite a bit less if I did. That was at 110 yards. Not worth the money for me to start changing things.