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Hunter Division - how to overcome the 16x ranging challenge?
- Thread starter Aimright
- Start date
Tim, Many of the hunter class have inferior equipment and leveling the field so that we all had a equal chance of shooting well is a good start. Our Nationals have been won in the past by tuned rifles in the $500 range. I feel the biggest concession is the range to the target. If all hunter shooters could decently rangefind the target they are shooting the field would be much more level than as it is now. Whether it is accomplished by increasing the scope power, ability to bracket based on ones ability, or move the Hunter Targets in to around 40 - 45 yards would be another alternative. Like it or not we have a lot of hunter shooters that make up 60 to 70% of our class that could use a step up or maybe we need to take a step down. Maybe even putting them in a different flight would give some of balance. No body seems to care about the guys that show up in their class to shoot with no chance of even placing because it is peppered with talent and high end equipment. The other classes are structured by rules they need to at least get a good read on the target and the distance to it. No quite so for the Hunter Class for many every long shot is a gamble disregarding the wind challenge.
Bill
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Could it also be that most Hunter shooters rarely if ever practice on a consistent basis? The ones that due are the ones that win, regardless if your equipment cost $3500 or $500.
Taking your equipment out the day before a match and shooting 20 shots doesn't really count as working on your game.
So let's dummy up the game and make it so everyone has a equal chance of making the podium...regardless if you practice or not because those 60-70% that don't have a chance of winning are probably the only ones that never pick up their equipment and practice. The more I shoot the better I get.
Perhaps those 60-70% just aren't as driven or competitive as the other people. So upping the.magnification or using rangefinders or shots that aren't as long all your doing is watering down the competition. Might as well hand out the participation awards as well!
Taking your equipment out the day before a match and shooting 20 shots doesn't really count as working on your game.
So let's dummy up the game and make it so everyone has a equal chance of making the podium...regardless if you practice or not because those 60-70% that don't have a chance of winning are probably the only ones that never pick up their equipment and practice. The more I shoot the better I get.
Perhaps those 60-70% just aren't as driven or competitive as the other people. So upping the.magnification or using rangefinders or shots that aren't as long all your doing is watering down the competition. Might as well hand out the participation awards as well!
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We've got a couple Hunter class guys at the 3 clubs I go to that are often high overall score. First one that comes to mind is Kent. His rig is a Daystate Huntsman, pretty sure the bolt action version, not the side lever, and a pretty budget friendly Athlon. I think the Athlon he uses is in the $300 range. So, his rig is what? $1250-1400? For sure not Thomas or Red Wolf or Alpha Wolf money. As for inferior equipment, he is ranging just fine @16x or he wouldn't be able to shoot matches where he only misses one or two shots. Another example is Philip Hepler who won nationals a year or two ago? With a marauder and a UTG scope. I'll repeat, it can be done.
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The inferior equipment argument is not just a hunter phenomenon. The same can be said in all classes.
The second part about range finding is also true in all other classes. The ones that set their rigs up best and practise most have an advantage, as it should be.
In what I have observed, the 60 to 70% of guys shooting hunter are not the ones making the noise to "level the field".
The uncertainty of range finding for hunter is universal for the entire division, so how can you make it more level?
The best prepared, the most practised, making them the best shot will win, whether the scope is 16X or 50X. This is something you know, because you are one of them.
Tim
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Keith, I don't think you have any idea how hard the Hunter class works and the Burning River Club likely has the biggest Hunter attendance in AAFTA right now. Attitudes like yours won't encourage them to stick around either. As far as your participation wards go, well I know where you can put them!Could it also be that most Hunter shooters rarely if ever practice on a consistent basis? The ones that due are the ones that win, regardless if your equipment cost $3500 or $500.
Taking your equipment out the day before a match and shooting 20 shots doesn't really count as working on your game.
So let's dummy up the game and make it so everyone has a equal chance of making the podium...regardless if you practice or not because those 60-70% that don't have a chance of winning are probably the only ones that never pick up their equipment and practice. The more I shoot the better I get.
Perhaps those 60-70% just aren't as driven or competitive as the other people. So upping the.magnification or using rangefinders or shots that aren't as long all your doing is watering down the competition. Might as well hand out the participation awards as well!
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Frank, Phil Hepler puts his time in and shoots well and I don't quarry with that. In order to shoot matches and only miss one or two shots something is working for you for sure.
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Well Bill perhaps you should start your own Hunter class matches since you know exactly how it should be done. Everyone that has made up these rules obviously didnt know what they were doing. I'm hopeful people on the BOG will do what's.best.for.the.sport not for a few Hunter individuals that think they know it all. Goodluck on your open class participation as well.. looking forward to seeing how you like the.higher magnification scope since that will never change for Hunter class. 
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Thanks, I am kind of looking forward to it. I feel some of my ideas that have come to past have allowed more shootes to enjoy Hunter Field Target on a more level playing field. ie give Hunter piston shooters their own class. I suppose you would think that should of never happened either. Hunter class still has improvements a head and will eventually get there or some of them just might start their own class. Would be a sad day for AAFTA if that ever happens. Besides the competition that I have enjoyed I would like to leave Hunter Field target a little better than when I arrived. In some ways my goals have been accomplished. In ending I'll say this "IT IS "Not a good bet to EVER say NEVER"Well Bill perhaps you should start your own Hunter class matches since you know exactly how it should be done. Everyone that has made up these rules obviously didnt know what they were doing. I'm hopeful people on the BOG will do what's.best.for.the.sport not for a few Hunter individuals that think they know it all. Goodluck on your open class participation as well.. looking forward to seeing how you like the.higher magnification scope since that will never change for Hunter class.
Bill Day
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After reading these posts i come away with the feeling that a separate class ruled by the equipment Is what is being said here ? If i come in with a Gamo springer that i have somehow tuned into a Thomas shooter with a UGT 12x scope i can not compete with the big boys ? just what is a level playing field anyway ?
I have always thought it was "may the best shooter win" ?
I have always thought it was "may the best shooter win" ?
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Bill,
You have a hard sell with the idea that the Hunter class is disadvantaged with the equipment allowed... in my opinion.
If you look at the AAFTA Grand Prix scores this year and sort ALL Classes by highest overall scores tallied by three highest scores from the Grand Prix season, with a 300 being the highest possible.... Hunter was 299, Open, 298, WFTF PCP 298, WFTF PCP 296, WFTF PCP 294, Open 289, Hunter 283, Open 281, Hunter 278, Hunter 277, Hunter 275, Open 271..... and it continues mixed like that.
It looks to me like the classes/Divisions all have about the same chance at getting that 100% at any Grand Prix event. It's all good as it is now.. No need to change anything in any class as I see it.
I agree that we need an Unlimited class for the older shooters and those that are less mobile to keep them in the game... but that proposal doesn't seem to have a 2/3rds support from the clubs.
Wayne
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Wayne, we have enough negative noise on this subject that I agree it would be a struggle. It seems to me when they want it the Bog has unlimited power. When they don't want it they pass the buck to the clubs. I have seen that happen. The last time I looked at the poll I started 80% of those that voted want the 20 ft/lb of the unlimited version. The other 20% wanted 12 ft/lbs. We historically for at least 4 or 5 years now have been the biggest class. When three to five shooters get awards for scoring placement in our class we have up to 20 or 30 or more that get nothing. Granted we do have a lot of talent in the Hunter class and that is recognized by some of the negative comments you can read on this subject. Maybe having a first or second flight system that received awards after the Championship flight were handed out. This use to work well years ago for the NFAA and the IBO. The largest class would be the best opportunity to try this out. At least it would give recognition to those coming up behind us and would still leave a lot of the class with nothing to show for it. Back in my Archery day they use to have a wescott system that averaged all the scores and awarded 3 awards to whom ever the average worked out to be. Shoot offs were common and everyone enjoyed.
Regardless what the other classes say or cry about the Hunter class is disadvantaged on scope power. Sure at times some of class score higher than they do but likely shoot better. Most of us don't but reasonably could if we could dial in the correct distance as they can. Again, we are only shooting against our own class but that seems to worry them. Not necessarily the WFTF class because of their world limitations but surely the open classes would be. Maybe I'm all wrong and blind as a bat, Eating all the humble pie I can digest. Maybe even so embarrassed I would drop out. Stay tuned to the Bill Day show next year.
It may be a learning curve for all of us if I can muster the Open class.
Regardless what the other classes say or cry about the Hunter class is disadvantaged on scope power. Sure at times some of class score higher than they do but likely shoot better. Most of us don't but reasonably could if we could dial in the correct distance as they can. Again, we are only shooting against our own class but that seems to worry them. Not necessarily the WFTF class because of their world limitations but surely the open classes would be. Maybe I'm all wrong and blind as a bat, Eating all the humble pie I can digest. Maybe even so embarrassed I would drop out. Stay tuned to the Bill Day show next year.
It may be a learning curve for all of us if I can muster the Open class.
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Practice wins,but a lot of people don’t have a place to practice out to 40-55 yards,I can squeeze 37 out my back yard and practice a lot ,but still find it a real challenge to get the further targets, I wouldn’t mind a little more power but if you want an equal playing field adding more expensive equipment is not the answer. Most of my powder burner friends can’t believe the cost of even a entry level pcp , when I tell them how much a day state or Thomas cost their like are you friggin kidding me a pellet gun , marking the distances would be better to make it a level playing for us newbies to the sport I know it’s not going to make me clean the course it will help me to know my hold,but it’s still up to me to make the shot, and if your one o& those 50 plus shooters you might start cleaning the courses ,but for 20 to say 40 shooters it might boost you 5-10 points, I don’t think it would make everyone shoot a lot better but would boost some scores, doesn’t cost anything,everyone knows distance and lays the blame right on the shooter for the miss.
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This topic just keeps dragging on and seems to have intertwined with one or two other recent FT topics.
Having just got into it in the past 2 years or so, I know it’s great fun, and all the practice does make you a better shooter overall.
There is much talk about which is harder, who has the most advantage, equipment and optics allowed, etc.
Let me first say that I enjoy FT and also EFT. I’ll also add that although I know scope ranging is a part of the FT game, it honestly has nothing to do with marksmanship. I’d be totally fine with making “Hunter” truly Hunter like real life hunting Hunter and allowing LRF. If we’re trying to simulate hunting, let’s go big and inject some reality. No more arguments about scope power. Hell, make it a fixed 10x scope, what would it matter if the ranges are known? Just two cents from a Newby that enjoys the sport in Hunter class.
Having just got into it in the past 2 years or so, I know it’s great fun, and all the practice does make you a better shooter overall.
There is much talk about which is harder, who has the most advantage, equipment and optics allowed, etc.
Let me first say that I enjoy FT and also EFT. I’ll also add that although I know scope ranging is a part of the FT game, it honestly has nothing to do with marksmanship. I’d be totally fine with making “Hunter” truly Hunter like real life hunting Hunter and allowing LRF. If we’re trying to simulate hunting, let’s go big and inject some reality. No more arguments about scope power. Hell, make it a fixed 10x scope, what would it matter if the ranges are known? Just two cents from a Newby that enjoys the sport in Hunter class.
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"And with all that I’ve read and studied I cannot for the life of me understand what the hell the ultimate end game is."
These recurring FT debates that devolve into lobbying for this or that particular rule or change are usually driven by those feeling disadvantaged in some way or another; be it equipment, shooting position, or otherwise related. The loudest voices have often tried and failed to remedy their perceived disadvantage, so resort to lobbying for remedy. This often occurs after experiencing a recent (or repeated) butt-kicking(s). So the end game is most always to gain or regain advantage(s); and hard-sold as victimhood.
Consequently I'm occasionally compelled to put this BS into proper perspective by repeating something I've said many times before. "Everyone lobbies for rules that will advantage them, and lobbies against rules that don't/won't."
If it's any consolation, humans are not the only self-serving species. ALL species are. SELF-FIRSTedness has always been a natural fact of life; but usually related to survival and/or prospering... rather than prevailing in a little game.
FWIW, the reigning Hunter Class Texas State FT Champion used a box-stock front-focusing scope, does not employ bracketing (and never will), yet posted the high score of the weekend in not only Hunter Class, but all classes, in the most-contested Republic Of Texas FT Championship in history. Dang guy also shuns shooting aids, accessories, and gadgets like he's ALLERGIC.
Personally, I think he just got lucky. VERY!
These recurring FT debates that devolve into lobbying for this or that particular rule or change are usually driven by those feeling disadvantaged in some way or another; be it equipment, shooting position, or otherwise related. The loudest voices have often tried and failed to remedy their perceived disadvantage, so resort to lobbying for remedy. This often occurs after experiencing a recent (or repeated) butt-kicking(s). So the end game is most always to gain or regain advantage(s); and hard-sold as victimhood.
Consequently I'm occasionally compelled to put this BS into proper perspective by repeating something I've said many times before. "Everyone lobbies for rules that will advantage them, and lobbies against rules that don't/won't."
If it's any consolation, humans are not the only self-serving species. ALL species are. SELF-FIRSTedness has always been a natural fact of life; but usually related to survival and/or prospering... rather than prevailing in a little game.
FWIW, the reigning Hunter Class Texas State FT Champion used a box-stock front-focusing scope, does not employ bracketing (and never will), yet posted the high score of the weekend in not only Hunter Class, but all classes, in the most-contested Republic Of Texas FT Championship in history. Dang guy also shuns shooting aids, accessories, and gadgets like he's ALLERGIC.
Personally, I think he just got lucky. VERY!
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These subjects of unlimited and what that class would be, Open on what small changes could be, Statements of we are trying to change hunter have become a mess ... Folks make valid statements, others read what they want of whats said, regurgitate some version that fits there perspective and personal agenda etc .. and on it goes.
What a cluster **** ... honestly messed up.
What a cluster **** ... honestly messed up.
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100%
Ranging by focus isn't applicable anywhere else. And omitting it from field target wouldn't be any great loss. People still wouldn't often shoot perfect scores. Hell, I used a rangefinder and shot in Unlimited last weekend (but from Open position) and still missed a shot, cuz I shanked it. It was big enough and close enough that the range wasn't even kind of a factor, it was obviously 18-22 yards, just to the bare eye, and the kill zone was generous enough that calling it 15-25 would have still put the pellet in there. Having a decent idea of the distance is of course necessary, but no bigger part than figuring out how to be steady from your chosen position, having a handle on where you need to hold to account for any wind, and not making any mental mistakes.
Another pro for ditching the sillyness of rangefinding by focus would be that it'd make it much easier for new folks to get into it. ANY scope would work, as pointed out already.
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Put me on the side of eliminating range-finding of any kind from Hunter Class COMPLETELY.
I suspect even those who've spent multi-thousands in the quest for the holy grail of Hunter Class scopes might still be able to afford a roll of electrical tape; to tape over the yardage markings on their $200 oversized side-wheels, on their $1000 scopes.
But to show exactly how selfless a Humanitarian I really am, in order to achieve my goal of single-handedly bringing about WORLD PEACE, starting on this forum and Hunter Class FT, I'll offer here and now to donate as much electrical tape as it takes to end the Hunter Class range-finding capabilities debate from Hunter Class forever by personally supplying as much electrical tape as it takes... at my own expense!
How can you beat a deal like that?
After that, we'll initiate my plan to end the Unlimited Class debate.
I suspect even those who've spent multi-thousands in the quest for the holy grail of Hunter Class scopes might still be able to afford a roll of electrical tape; to tape over the yardage markings on their $200 oversized side-wheels, on their $1000 scopes.
But to show exactly how selfless a Humanitarian I really am, in order to achieve my goal of single-handedly bringing about WORLD PEACE, starting on this forum and Hunter Class FT, I'll offer here and now to donate as much electrical tape as it takes to end the Hunter Class range-finding capabilities debate from Hunter Class forever by personally supplying as much electrical tape as it takes... at my own expense!
How can you beat a deal like that?
After that, we'll initiate my plan to end the Unlimited Class debate.
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Let there be known distances, or LRF's, and extend the farthest distance to 70Y! Yuh know shake up the sport a bit. As if that'll ever happen/AITEH On SH forum their saying is ASGH/ Aint Sh!t Gonna Happen
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Knowing the cave man that owns that TM above I think he would have us all shooting sitting from the ground, without sticks, in a big red ant colony. I pretty sure I have nailed 2 of his preferences and the 3rd well, wouldn't surprise me."And with all that I’ve read and studied I cannot for the life of me understand what the hell the ultimate end game is."
These recurring FT debates that devolve into lobbying for this or that particular rule or change are usually driven by those feeling disadvantaged in some way or another; be it equipment, shooting position, or otherwise related. The loudest voices have often tried and failed to remedy their perceived disadvantage, so resort to lobbying for remedy. This often occurs after experiencing a recent (or repeated) butt-kicking(s). So the end game is most always to gain or regain advantage(s); and hard-sold as victimhood.
Consequently I'm occasionally compelled to put this BS into proper perspective by repeating something I've said many times before. "Everyone lobbies for rules that will advantage them, and lobbies against rules that don't/won't."
If it's any consolation, humans are not the only self-serving species. ALL species are. SELF-FIRSTedness has always been a natural fact of life; but usually related to survival and/or prospering... rather than prevailing in a little game.
FWIW, the reigning Hunter Class Texas State FT Champion used a box-stock front-focusing scope, does not employ bracketing (and never will), yet posted the high score of the weekend in not only Hunter Class, but all classes, in the most-contested Republic Of Texas FT Championship in history. Dang guy also shuns shooting aids, accessories, and gadgets like he's ALLERGIC.
View attachment 299494
Personally, I think he just got lucky. VERY!
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