Which is why we use the barrel and ammo combination that produces the smallest group possible.
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How to compare apples to apples in BR
- Thread starter thomasair
- Start date
Group size does not tell the tale.
The number of shots that can connect with the 10 if the proper windage is used is the determining factor. You can have 2 25 shot groups that measure the same size and one of them can have double the opportunities to connect with the 10. It happens all the time.
Mike
The number of shots that can connect with the 10 if the proper windage is used is the determining factor. You can have 2 25 shot groups that measure the same size and one of them can have double the opportunities to connect with the 10. It happens all the time.
Mike
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i take two of your rifles, same model, same tune, same ammo and test each via the process delineated in my original post. Both produce the same group size. Which of these two groups has the highest probability of hitting the 10 ring?
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There is no way of telling if you don’t examine each shot individually.
Groups are random projections and measuring the 2 furthest points does not tell you anything about the other 23 shots except that they are somewhere inside the furthest two.
Plus… your test does not make each shot taken from each rifle in the exact same wind condition. You are no longer comparing apples to apples.
Mike
Groups are random projections and measuring the 2 furthest points does not tell you anything about the other 23 shots except that they are somewhere inside the furthest two.
Plus… your test does not make each shot taken from each rifle in the exact same wind condition. You are no longer comparing apples to apples.
Mike
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If both of your rifles shot the same group size over 25 meters outdoors, one can deduce that the wind was close to calm. Now if i test an FX Impact M3 in the same conditions and as delineated in my first post and it produced a smaller group size, which of the three rifles would you compete with?
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I would do what I described I would do when I started this thread.
Groups can measure the same but be very different shapes and very different shot concentrations. I’d take a 1” wide group that is only 1/4 tall over a 1” tall group 1/4” wide. The shooter can fix the horizontal by adjusting for wind. He cannot fix the vertical with regularity. I would also take a 1” wide group that is 1/4” tall over a 3/4” round group…especially if they were not shot at the exact same times. Overall group size is not a reliable predictor of the highest number of opportunities to score a 10 with a good windage adjustment….which is why I made this thread.
Mike
Groups can measure the same but be very different shapes and very different shot concentrations. I’d take a 1” wide group that is only 1/4 tall over a 1” tall group 1/4” wide. The shooter can fix the horizontal by adjusting for wind. He cannot fix the vertical with regularity. I would also take a 1” wide group that is 1/4” tall over a 3/4” round group…especially if they were not shot at the exact same times. Overall group size is not a reliable predictor of the highest number of opportunities to score a 10 with a good windage adjustment….which is why I made this thread.
Mike
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Just want to clarify my understanding with an example for illustration purposes: I love this stuff, even if my brain hurts.
Shooter (A) has a 25-shot group with .50” CTC, his POA is the ‘X’ dot
Shooter (B) has his 25-shot group with a .35” CTC and his POA is the ‘X’ dot in his respective bull.
Neither shooter made any windage adjustments, and both shooters shot at the same time.
Given the above, are we saying Shooter (B) and his rifle has more opportunities to catch the 10 ring because more of his shots were closer to the X dot in his bull; given the .35” vs. .50” CTC? If so, then for this exercise, it is also true that his rifle was more accurate than Shooter (A)’s gun.
If I have understood correctly, it makes sense to me and I agree with the concept.
Mike - please clarify if I misunderstood.
Tom
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You can’t use group size. Group size is the measure of the 2 furthest shots. You have to look at the shots individually. A .35” group may have just as many opportunities to catch the 10 as a .5” group. It depends on the size of the 10 ring. Follow my directions in the first post. Instead of making up hypothetical groups …post a real 25 shot groups and we can go through the process.
Mike
Mike
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Ok, I did misunderstand.
My original logic was that if both 10 rings were exactly the same size, then the shooter with the smaller group size has more opportunities to catch equally sized 10 rings for both shooters. I think what you are saying is that once you draw a straight line from each shot to the ten ring, the shooter with more shots that are closer to the 10 ring, has more opportunities to catch more 10’s and group size is not the determinant.
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Tommy….Here is a visual of the example.
When you look at the top row…you probably think these look about the same.
Now we measure group size in the second row. Ok…the group on the right is smaller.
Now we look to see how many have the opportunity to connect with the 10 if we make a good wind call and hold in 3rd row.
The group on the left has 8 opportunities to catch a 10 while the group on the right only 3.
I want more chances to get a 10.
Mike
When you look at the top row…you probably think these look about the same.
Now we measure group size in the second row. Ok…the group on the right is smaller.
Now we look to see how many have the opportunity to connect with the 10 if we make a good wind call and hold in 3rd row.
The group on the left has 8 opportunities to catch a 10 while the group on the right only 3.
I want more chances to get a 10.
Mike
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“A picture is worth a thousand words.” I am a very visual learner. Thanks Mike!
The illustrations connect the dots for me.
Next time out at the range, I’m going to shoot a couple/few 25-shot groups and try this out. I don’t have other AG shooters to test case this with, so I may just try by myself for the first attempt. Just want to see how many shots will have more opportunities at hitting 10’s.
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It’s a great tip and I can see exactly what your saying and how it would be useful.
The 2 people shooting know what their doing. There not competing just holding on the the centre ring and shooting at the same time. Then the groups will tell a story.
The 2 people shooting know what their doing. There not competing just holding on the the centre ring and shooting at the same time. Then the groups will tell a story.
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a harmonic barrel tuner like the one I make and sell makes even crappy pellets shoot better at least in the vertical component.
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Also, in Centerfire and Rimfire BR, we train ourselves NOT to shoot at the same time as the shooter next to us... It's called "doubling" and one guy always loses! We pick a rhythm that works and try to stay with it at least until the conditions change or your neighbor speeds or slows up.
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Imagine my disappointment to learn that neither FX nor Daystate was here trying to teach us something.
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Excellent explanation. I think you might also want to let the "10" ring float (vertically) into the densest area of your shots. This would show how far you should adjust your sights to get the most 10's. In your example, the sights on the gun on the right are not set properly to result in the most 10's being shot. Raising the rear sight a bit would result in a much higher 10-count.
--Jim
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It’s a visual for the sake of providing understanding of the method. If you guys want…I can label the better target with your personal choice of rifle so you don’t get ruffled.
Mike
Mike
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ok now that I see this file upload, a little explanation of what is going on here.
these targets sit in my target holder on the horizontal so I've indicated which way is up..
circled (1) in the center of target is a five shot group without the tuner on the barrel...
circled (2) (at target one) is now a 5 shot group with 4 ounce tuner installed, prints low on paper...
circled (3) next target is a 5 shot group with scope adjusted to print group at the 6 o'clock location, to not wipe out the dot. The tuner happened to be in 3 o'clock position...
circled (4) is 5 shot group with tuner adjusted to 12 o'clock position.
circled (5) is a 5 shot group with tuner adjusted to 9 o'clock position.
circled (6) is a 5 shot group with tuner turned back to 10 o'clock position.
circled (7) I turned the tuner back to 11 o'clock then shot the numeral 4, then decided to shoot all 8 of the "1's" in the sighter targets.
circled (8) I then shot the 5 remaining targets (1 shot each) all tens a few were "x's".
what this shows is that between a tuner setting of 12 o'clock and 9 o'clock, I settled at 11 o'clock which gave me the least amount of vertical variance shot to shot on the target. This is a NRA Air Rifle 5/10Meter target shot at 48 feet in my basement... its a moot point until I get this rifle out into the weather and deal with the wind. This is the rifle that previously had me fighting for a ten ring hit.
View attachment 20230226_171643697_iOS.heic
these targets sit in my target holder on the horizontal so I've indicated which way is up..
circled (1) in the center of target is a five shot group without the tuner on the barrel...
circled (2) (at target one) is now a 5 shot group with 4 ounce tuner installed, prints low on paper...
circled (3) next target is a 5 shot group with scope adjusted to print group at the 6 o'clock location, to not wipe out the dot. The tuner happened to be in 3 o'clock position...
circled (4) is 5 shot group with tuner adjusted to 12 o'clock position.
circled (5) is a 5 shot group with tuner adjusted to 9 o'clock position.
circled (6) is a 5 shot group with tuner turned back to 10 o'clock position.
circled (7) I turned the tuner back to 11 o'clock then shot the numeral 4, then decided to shoot all 8 of the "1's" in the sighter targets.
circled (8) I then shot the 5 remaining targets (1 shot each) all tens a few were "x's".
what this shows is that between a tuner setting of 12 o'clock and 9 o'clock, I settled at 11 o'clock which gave me the least amount of vertical variance shot to shot on the target. This is a NRA Air Rifle 5/10Meter target shot at 48 feet in my basement... its a moot point until I get this rifle out into the weather and deal with the wind. This is the rifle that previously had me fighting for a ten ring hit.
View attachment 20230226_171643697_iOS.heic
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Here is an actual pair of 25 shot groups at 100y obtained in the manner I explained above in my first post. One group has 23 shots that would connect with the 10 with proper windage control and other has 16 shots. The connections take into account the plug used in 100y competition. Someone will likely nit pick the numbers, but anyway you slice it….one group has way more possible connections. This is exactly what this method of testing is intended to figure out.
Mike
Mike
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