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How to compare apples to apples in BR

Group size does not tell the tale.

The number of shots that can connect with the 10 if the proper windage is used is the determining factor. You can have 2 25 shot groups that measure the same size and one of them can have double the opportunities to connect with the 10. It happens all the time.

Mike
 
Group size does not tell the tale.

The number of shots that can connect with the 10 if the proper windage is used is the determining factor. You can have 2 25 shot groups that measure the same size and one of them can have double the opportunities to connect with the 10. It happens all the time.

Mike
i take two of your rifles, same model, same tune, same ammo and test each via the process delineated in my original post. Both produce the same group size. Which of these two groups has the highest probability of hitting the 10 ring?
 
There is no way of telling if you don’t examine each shot individually.

Groups are random projections and measuring the 2 furthest points does not tell you anything about the other 23 shots except that they are somewhere inside the furthest two.

Plus… your test does not make each shot taken from each rifle in the exact same wind condition. You are no longer comparing apples to apples.

Mike
 
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There is no way of telling if you don’t examine each shot individually.

Groups are random projections and measuring the 2 furthest points does not tell you anything about the other 23 shots except that they are somewhere inside the furthest two.

Plus… your test does not make each shot taken from each rifle in the exact same wind condition. You are no longer comparing apples to apples.

Mike
If both of your rifles shot the same group size over 25 meters outdoors, one can deduce that the wind was close to calm. Now if i test an FX Impact M3 in the same conditions and as delineated in my first post and it produced a smaller group size, which of the three rifles would you compete with?
 
I would do what I described I would do when I started this thread.

Groups can measure the same but be very different shapes and very different shot concentrations. I’d take a 1” wide group that is only 1/4 tall over a 1” tall group 1/4” wide. The shooter can fix the horizontal by adjusting for wind. He cannot fix the vertical with regularity. I would also take a 1” wide group that is 1/4” tall over a 3/4” round group…especially if they were not shot at the exact same times. Overall group size is not a reliable predictor of the highest number of opportunities to score a 10 with a good windage adjustment….which is why I made this thread.

Mike
 
Here is a simple way of pretty reliably determining how guns compare to each other by taking the shooter out of the equation. Most don’t have indoor ranges, so this method will work for anyone at any distance and it’s not dependent on good conditions.

Set up two benches side by side and as close together as possible. Have two shooters point at the middle of their own bull and fire the rifles to be compared at the exact same moment for 25 shots. You can just count down from 3 or something.

To analyze the groups you are just going to draw straight left and right lines from the shots to the 10 ring. If the targets are scored with a plug, take that diameter into account. What you are trying to determine is the number of shots that have the opportunity to touch the 10 ring if the appropriate left/right hold for wind is made. A gun that has 20 opportunities to catch the 10 will almost always beat a gun that only has 10 even if the shooter with the 10 gun is better at reading wind.

Because of the way certain targets are configured….a very small reduction in 25 shot group size can net way more opportunities to catch the 10. If you asked someone if they wanted 10 tries to hit the 10 ring or 20….nobody will pick 10. However, this is exactly the scenario that unfolds at every BR match ever held.

The “It’s the Indian and not the Arrow” philosophy as it pertains to BR is incredibly naive.

Mike

Just want to clarify my understanding with an example for illustration purposes: I love this stuff, even if my brain hurts. 😀😀

Shooter (A) has a 25-shot group with .50” CTC, his POA is the ‘X’ dot
Shooter (B) has his 25-shot group with a .35” CTC and his POA is the ‘X’ dot in his respective bull.
Neither shooter made any windage adjustments, and both shooters shot at the same time.

Given the above, are we saying Shooter (B) and his rifle has more opportunities to catch the 10 ring because more of his shots were closer to the X dot in his bull; given the .35” vs. .50” CTC? If so, then for this exercise, it is also true that his rifle was more accurate than Shooter (A)’s gun.

If I have understood correctly, it makes sense to me and I agree with the concept.

Mike - please clarify if I misunderstood.

Tom
 
You can’t use group size. Group size is the measure of the 2 furthest shots. You have to look at the shots individually. A .35” group may have just as many opportunities to catch the 10 as a .5” group. It depends on the size of the 10 ring. Follow my directions in the first post. Instead of making up hypothetical groups …post a real 25 shot groups and we can go through the process.

Mike
 
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You can’t use group size. Group size is the measure of the 2 furthest shots. You have to look at the shots individually. A .35” group may have just as many opportunities to catch the 10 as a .5” group. It depends on the size of the 10 ring. Follow my directions in the first post. Instead of making up hypothetical groups …post a real 25 shot groups and we can go through the process.

Mike

Ok, I did misunderstand.

My original logic was that if both 10 rings were exactly the same size, then the shooter with the smaller group size has more opportunities to catch equally sized 10 rings for both shooters. I think what you are saying is that once you draw a straight line from each shot to the ten ring, the shooter with more shots that are closer to the 10 ring, has more opportunities to catch more 10’s and group size is not the determinant.
 
Group size does not tell the tale.

The number of shots that can connect with the 10 if the proper windage is used is the determining factor. You can have 2 25 shot groups that measure the same size and one of them can have double the opportunities to connect with the 10. It happens all the time.

Mike

I missed seeing this before I posted. Makes sense.
 
Tommy….Here is a visual of the example.

When you look at the top row…you probably think these look about the same.

Now we measure group size in the second row. Ok…the group on the right is smaller.

Now we look to see how many have the opportunity to connect with the 10 if we make a good wind call and hold in 3rd row.

The group on the left has 8 opportunities to catch a 10 while the group on the right only 3.

I want more chances to get a 10.
B843DD92-5A41-495F-B5ED-DFEF70C3CD05.jpeg


Mike
 
Tommy….Here is a visual of the example.

When you look at the top row…you probably think these look about the same.

Now we measure group size in the second row. Ok…the group on the right is smaller.

Now we look to see how many have the opportunity to connect with the 10 if we make a good wind call and hold in 3rd row.

The group on the left has 8 opportunities to catch a 10 while the group on the right only 3.

I want more chances to get a 10. View attachment 335373

Mike

“A picture is worth a thousand words.” I am a very visual learner. Thanks Mike!

The illustrations connect the dots for me.

Next time out at the range, I’m going to shoot a couple/few 25-shot groups and try this out. I don’t have other AG shooters to test case this with, so I may just try by myself for the first attempt. Just want to see how many shots will have more opportunities at hitting 10’s.
 
This post is about how to determine what is good equipment without an indoor range at your disciplines distance.

Small differences in VERTICAL group size can make the number of opportunities you have at catching a 10 dramatically increase or decrease. This is a good way of being able to see it and compare it.

Mike
a harmonic barrel tuner like the one I make and sell makes even crappy pellets shoot better at least in the vertical component.
 
Tommy….Here is a visual of the example.

When you look at the top row…you probably think these look about the same.

Now we measure group size in the second row. Ok…the group on the right is smaller.

Now we look to see how many have the opportunity to connect with the 10 if we make a good wind call and hold in 3rd row.

The group on the left has 8 opportunities to catch a 10 while the group on the right only 3.

I want more chances to get a 10. View attachment 335373

Mike
Excellent explanation. I think you might also want to let the "10" ring float (vertically) into the densest area of your shots. This would show how far you should adjust your sights to get the most 10's. In your example, the sights on the gun on the right are not set properly to result in the most 10's being shot. Raising the rear sight a bit would result in a much higher 10-count.

--Jim
 
ok now that I see this file upload, a little explanation of what is going on here.

these targets sit in my target holder on the horizontal so I've indicated which way is up..

circled (1) in the center of target is a five shot group without the tuner on the barrel...
circled (2) (at target one) is now a 5 shot group with 4 ounce tuner installed, prints low on paper...
circled (3) next target is a 5 shot group with scope adjusted to print group at the 6 o'clock location, to not wipe out the dot. The tuner happened to be in 3 o'clock position...
circled (4) is 5 shot group with tuner adjusted to 12 o'clock position.
circled (5) is a 5 shot group with tuner adjusted to 9 o'clock position.
circled (6) is a 5 shot group with tuner turned back to 10 o'clock position.
circled (7) I turned the tuner back to 11 o'clock then shot the numeral 4, then decided to shoot all 8 of the "1's" in the sighter targets.
circled (8) I then shot the 5 remaining targets (1 shot each) all tens a few were "x's".

what this shows is that between a tuner setting of 12 o'clock and 9 o'clock, I settled at 11 o'clock which gave me the least amount of vertical variance shot to shot on the target. This is a NRA Air Rifle 5/10Meter target shot at 48 feet in my basement... its a moot point until I get this rifle out into the weather and deal with the wind. This is the rifle that previously had me fighting for a ten ring hit.

View attachment 20230226_171643697_iOS.heic
 
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Here is an actual pair of 25 shot groups at 100y obtained in the manner I explained above in my first post. One group has 23 shots that would connect with the 10 with proper windage control and other has 16 shots. The connections take into account the plug used in 100y competition. Someone will likely nit pick the numbers, but anyway you slice it….one group has way more possible connections. This is exactly what this method of testing is intended to figure out.

Mike
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89082DBD-0B3E-4D64-802A-A5F8C50C757E.jpeg