How to compare apples to apples in BR

[thomasair]

Here is a simple way of pretty reliably determining how guns compare to each other by taking the shooter out of the equation. Most don’t have indoor ranges, so this method will work for anyone at any distance and it’s not dependent on good conditions.

Set up two benches side by side and as close together as possible. Have two shooters point at the middle of their own bull and fire the rifles to be compared at the exact same moment for 25 shots. You can just count down from 3 or something.

To analyze the groups you are just going to draw straight left and right lines from the shots to the 10 ring. If the targets are scored with a plug, take that diameter into account. What you are trying to determine is the number of shots that have the opportunity to touch the 10 ring if the appropriate left/right hold for wind is made. A gun that has 20 opportunities to catch the 10 will almost always beat a gun that only has 10 even if the shooter with the 10 gun is better at reading wind.

Because of the way certain targets are configured….a very small reduction in 25 shot group size can net way more opportunities to catch the 10. If you asked someone if they wanted 10 tries to hit the 10 ring or 20….nobody will pick 10. However, this is exactly the scenario that unfolds at every BR match ever held.

The “It’s the Indian and not the Arrow” philosophy as it pertains to BR is incredibly naive.

Mike

 

[jdwarren]

Interesting.... This might determine which gun is more "accurate", assuming that both shooters are handling their gun in the best possible configuration for the given gun (tight hold vs free recoil and excellent trigger control, etc). But, I think you would have to consider not only which gun was the most accurate, but how far off the less-accurate gun was. If they were pretty close, maybe one has 20 opportunities for 10 and the other only has 18 or 19, I think reading the wind better could easily result in a higher score with the less accurate gun. Also, if the less accurate gun is missing the 10 opportunity by a few thousandths of an inch, a good wind reader might also result in higher scores using the less accurate gun than a poor wind reader shooting the more accurate gun (IMHO, of course).

If the shooter is not much of a factor, the Thomas gun would always win and the rest of us just as well stay home. Maybe that should tell me something!

--Jim

 

[thomasair]

Jim, the shooter is always a factor.

Given equal shooter abilities…the gun with more opportunities to catch the 10 will always win. There is no situation where less opportunities to catch the 10 will be undesirable.

Mike

 

[JEFFPPC]

Here is a simple way of pretty reliably determining how guns compare to each other by taking the shooter out of the equation. Most don’t have indoor ranges, so this method will work for anyone at any distance and it’s not dependent on good conditions.

Set up two benches side by side and as close together as possible. Have two shooters point at the middle of their own bull and fire the rifles to be compared at the exact same moment for 25 shots. You can just count down from 3 or something.

To analyze the groups you are just going to draw straight left and right lines from the shots to the 10 ring. If the targets are scored with a plug, take that diameter into account. What you are trying to determine is the number of shots that have the opportunity to touch the 10 ring if the appropriate left/right hold for wind is made. A gun that has 20 opportunities to catch the 10 will almost always beat a gun that only has 10 even if the shooter with the 10 gun is better at reading wind.

Because of the way certain targets are configured….a very small reduction in 25 shot group size can net way more opportunities to catch the 10. If you asked someone if they wanted 10 tries to hit the 10 ring or 20….nobody will pick 10. However, this is exactly the scenario that unfolds at every BR match ever held.

The “It’s the Indian and not the Arrow” philosophy as it pertains to BR is incredibly naive.

Mike

I disagree. While this might hold true at 25yds or less indoors that goes away when you move outdoors. Move it to 50 yds outdoors I will take the Indian every time. Actually with less then perfect conditions even at 25 yds outdoors I will take the Indian. I shoot powder burner br outdoors from 100 to 1000 yds and most in between. I will take the Indian every time. Most of the Indians have good guns, not by no means always a dominate gun. The Indians win way more than their share. The Indian who knows his FLAGS will burn your fancy stockade down most days. Lots of people in the shooting world making a living from it, they make it about the equipment. Yes, good equipment is a plus but my money goes on the competent Indian. This from over 50 years of match experience.

 

[jdwarren]

Jim, the shooter is always a factor.

Given equal shooter abilities…the gun with more opportunities to catch the 10 will always win. There is no situation where less opportunities to catch the 10 will be undesirable.

Mike

You are correct. But, I think it is fairly rare to find two, or more, top level shooters with equal shooting abilities on any given day. I would love to have the most accurate gun at the match, but I would still get beaten most of the time.

--Jim

 

[thomasair]

Well, the post is about how to tell if one gun is better than another if you don’t have an indoor range and want to remove the shooter….but if you guys want to make it about my last sentence…ok.

 

[thomasair]

Hey Jeff…so which is it that you believe?

 

[Loufish]

This is key. " Have two shooters point at the middle of their own bull and fire the rifles to be compared at the exact same moment for 25 shots."
This 'rule' takes the Indian, or most of the Indian, out of the equation. Given a few more rules are applied. Such as free recoil, trigger pull method, and no flags. Me thinks...

 

[sb327]

The only thing one might do to confirm this method would be to switch shooters and repeat. It would simply be a verification.

Aiming at the bull is key.

Dave

 

[beerthief]

I think it is BOTH , the better gun only makes it possibly a little easier.

 

[thomasair]

I’ve been using this method with variations of my own guns for about 10 years. It works quite well. If you are shooting off a decent rest setup and just pinching the trigger….the shooter is out of the picture. It’s obviously important that both guns have their elevation set correctly. One round of this quickly shows you if you are really centered up on your elevation.

When I look at shooters cards and see that all of their shots are above or below center…you can bet they shot a lower score than they could have. There should be just as many shots above center as there are below.

Mike

 

[nervoustrig]

The original post is about how to take two guns and differentiate which one is capable of better precision.

Many of the subsequent replies are about what it takes to win a competition.

These aren't the same thing.

 

[JEFFPPC]

The original post is about how to take two guns and differentiate which one is capable of better precision.

Many of the subsequent replies are about what it takes to win a competition.

These aren't the same thing.

Up until the OPs last sentence. He brought it up. Until that was brought up I agree on his method to compare individual rifles. IF, you reverse the shooters and the results remain the same. Yes, the Indian vs Arrow is a pet peeve of mine.

 

[Troy Bakel]

Take the shooter and the scope out of the equation.
Place the rifle in a gun vice, muzzle pointed at a plain white target at 25 meters, fire 10 rounds. Measure group size. Repeat with 2nd rifle, same ammo, measure group size.

 

[jps2486]

There are so many variables to this, that you could go nuts trying to eliminate them. Even though you use two identical rifles, you have to consider:
1. Minor variations in shot cycle between each gun. Velocity isn't the same from shot to shot and mechanical tolerances such as barrel dimensions, valving, trigger lock time etc
2. Variations in pellet dimensions and weight
3. Yes, the indian is a major factor. How he holds the gun, cheek weld, trigger technique, follow through, attitude, how many donuts he ate before shooting.

Perfection is hard to achieve.

 

[L.Leon]

@thomasair, good post. For me, given good equipment? It’s all about the “Indian”, guns just laid there waiting… Everything you wrote being equal? It’s still two guys sending…

 

[wwo2015]

Mike is trying to achieve a rifle that is perfection-to do this he has to eliminate the shooter. It's the only variable that is inconsistent enough to delay his process. In his pursuit to do this all emphasis is put on the equipment and the development of it from that perspective. The better his product the better chance you will have winning shooting it. Known Mike long enough to understand his way of thinking and that's what he is trying to do!

 

[thomasair]

This post is about how to determine what is good equipment without an indoor range at your disciplines distance.

Small differences in VERTICAL group size can make the number of opportunities you have at catching a 10 dramatically increase or decrease. This is a good way of being able to see it and compare it.

Mike

 

[Troy Bakel]

This post is about how to determine what is good equipment without an indoor range at your disciplines distance.

Small differences in VERTICAL group size can make the number of opportunities you have at catching a 10 dramatically increase or decrease. This is a good way of being able to see it and compare it.

Mike

The same is true for catching the 9, 8, and 7 rings.

 

[thomasair]

Great….but no serious BR shooter is hoping to catch the 9, 8, or 7. 10s win the match.

Mike