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How to compare apples to apples in BR

Here is an actual pair of 25 shot groups at 100y obtained in the manner I explained above in my first post. One group has 23 shots that would connect with the 10 with proper windage control and other has 16 shots. The connections take into account the plug used in 100y competition. Someone will likely nit pick the numbers, but anyway you slice it….one group has way more possible connections. This is exactly what this method of testing is intended to figure out.

Mike View attachment 335892View attachment 335893

I tried this at 50 yards his past week with the Red Wolf .22 HP. I wasn’t thinking and I had my doubts about trying this at 50 yards. I shot 24 shots into a big hole with a 1” CTC. Many of the shots went thru the same hole, but I quickly realized that this exercise has to be tested at 100 yards where the group size will be larger and more spread out. Then I can draw the horizontal lines to the 10 ring.

Anyway, I will try this next week ( with the .25 Boss ) and post up a couple pics with my drawn horizontal lines from the 10 ring. Should be interesting to try this for myself.

Tom
 
Tommy…the test works at any distance. It doesn’t need to be 100. Here is about 50 shots at 50y in up to 10 mph wind. You can see that the vertical is contained in 1/2” or less. This is a great shooting gun. The shooter will have an excellent opportunity to catch a 10 with every shot if they hold left/right correctly. I held on the right side of the 6 ring and one ring high for every shot.

Mike
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All I know is it took me a couple shooting seasons to figure out how bad the vertical was killing my score!, and it still is…

I was always a group shooter and yes that little round group was great but you could still have a group in the two’s or three’s with vertical and come home with a trophy.

I’m not a great wind reader, but I’ll take my chances with my wind calls vs. vertical I can’t explain or even worse I can explain but can’t correct!
 
Tommy…the test works at any distance. It doesn’t need to be 100. Here is about 50 shots at 50y in up to 10 mph wind. You can see that the vertical is contained in 1/2” or less. This is a great shooting gun. The shooter will have an excellent opportunity to catch a 10 with every shot if they hold left/right correctly. I held on the right side of the 6 ring and one ring high for every shot.

Mike View attachment 351725

Ok, I will go back out next week and pick a windy day at 50 yards. I will shoot two 25 shot groups.

A couple of questions:

Does it matter if I happen to pick a day with either a strong head or tail wind, vs. picking a day with either a left to right or right to left wind? My assumption being that the head/tail winds may increase the vertical spread and it may be better if I wait for a strong R-L, or L-R vs. shooting with flags showing head/tail winds?

Also, should I aim or shoot my POA at the X, so I can assess my two groups and which has less vertical? As an example, shoot one group with POA on the X for every shot. Shoot the 2nd group holding for wind?

I get the concept, just want to optimize my process. I’ll post the two groups in any case.
 
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Well, the post is about how to tell if one gun is better than another if you don’t have an indoor range and want to remove the shooter….but if you guys want to make it about my last sentence…ok.
Here is a simple way of pretty reliably determining how guns compare to each other by taking the shooter out of the equation. Most don’t have indoor ranges, so this method will work for anyone at any distance and it’s not dependent on good conditions.

Set up two benches side by side and as close together as possible. Have two shooters point at the middle of their own bull and fire the rifles to be compared at the exact same moment for 25 shots. You can just count down from 3 or something.

To analyze the groups you are just going to draw straight left and right lines from the shots to the 10 ring. If the targets are scored with a plug, take that diameter into account. What you are trying to determine is the number of shots that have the opportunity to touch the 10 ring if the appropriate left/right hold for wind is made. A gun that has 20 opportunities to catch the 10 will almost always beat a gun that only has 10 even if the shooter with the 10 gun is better at reading wind.

Because of the way certain targets are configured….a very small reduction in 25 shot group size can net way more opportunities to catch the 10. If you asked someone if they wanted 10 tries to hit the 10 ring or 20….nobody will pick 10. However, this is exactly the scenario that unfolds at every BR match ever held.

The “It’s the Indian and not the Arrow” philosophy as it pertains to BR is incredibly naive.

Mike
would you have to trade guns and perform test again to get better results ?
 
Tommy, it would be best to avoid a direct head or tail depending on the speed. If you are shooting under an open structure with a roof…the effects of tail or head wind can often be exaggerated by the way the wind goes over the roof. Even so….if you shoot two guns at the same time the test will still be valid.

A friend of mine who’s a great shooter came over with his gun and we did this a bunch at 50 and 100. He typically had about 80 percent of his shots on the money and the remainder high or low misses. He had always questioned those high/lows but reasoned they were wind he was missing. We did trade guns back and forth and the high/lows were consistently present no matter who was shooting. The shooter cannot fix the vertical because it’s a gun problem that cannot be predicted. The only solution is to fix the gun.

When you can limit your vertical to 1/2” or so at 50y…you will be able to shoot high scores because all you have to do is read the left/right. The tighter the vertical, the more room you will have for windage error.

It’s the exact same for field target. The closer you shoot to the center in the vertical plane e….the wider the kill zone is.

As Joe pointed out….vertical is the biggest killer of scores.
 
Tommy, it would be best to avoid a direct head or tail depending on the speed. If you are shooting under an open structure with a roof…the effects of tail or head wind can often be exaggerated by the way the wind goes over the roof. Even so….if you shoot two guns at the same time the test will still be valid.

A friend of mine who’s a great shooter came over with his gun and we did this a bunch at 50 and 100. He typically had about 80 percent of his shots on the money and the remainder high or low misses. He had always questioned those high/lows but reasoned they were wind he was missing. We did trade guns back and forth and the high/lows were consistently present no matter who was shooting. The shooter cannot fix the vertical because it’s a gun problem that cannot be predicted. The only solution is to fix the gun.

When you can limit your vertical to 1/2” or so at 50y…you will be able to shoot high scores because all you have to do is read the left/right. The tighter the vertical, the more room you will have for windage error.

It’s the exact same for field target. The closer you shoot to the center in the vertical plane e….the wider the kill zone is.

As Joe pointed out….vertical is the biggest killer of scores.

Mike

The light bulb has gone on!

I do shoot in an open structure with an aluminum roof over the shooting benches. I will try an avoid doing this testing with the strong head or tail winds if possible, and this is good to know. This also might explain some of the unpredictable POI’s I have had with these types of winds.

Re. vertical shifts - I can relate to your friend’s observation about vertical shifts. I always figured it was all wind, or me making a technique error while shooting. Forgot about my gun that just can’t get to shooting 1/2” vertical spreads.

I have three guns that will consistently ( not every time) obtain 1/2” average group sizes at 50 yards in LIGHT wind conditions. This assumes that I have a clean barrel, pellets visually look good, and I am confident with my optimum velocity based on many prior range outings and Chrony results. The Safari .22 HP, RAW HM1000x .22 HP and the FX Boss .25 and .30 cal barrels. When I say they average 1/2”, I mean shooting 8-10 Five shot groups and no cherry picking. I want 40-50 shots to determine my average. Btw - These same three guns have also had their 1/2” to 3/4 or 1 inch CTC group sizes too. Generally speaking, they can shoot 1/2” groups at 50Y a majority of the time.

That said, I believe my biggest challenge might be not holding enough for the left or right wind holds. And/or, not judging the right amount of vertical with these same holds. Just to illustrate, and using the clock as an example, It might take me a couple of errant bulls to figure out if I was holding far enough right or left and/ or up or down using the hours on the clock.

Like others have said, there is a lot of good information and shared experiences in this thread.

P.S. If I really want to stroke my ego, I leave all my airguns home and bring my two Anschutz .22 Rimfires and pick a light wind day, and shoot a few N50 cards with premium ammo. Those are the scores I like to remember. 😀😀
 
Hi Tommy. This is the 1/2” I’m talking about. 1/2” ctc is a lot bigger…nearly 1/4” bigger. A great shooting pellet gun will keep a very high number (25-75) of shots within a band 1/2 tall. To convert that to ctc… take .500”minus .220”. So ctc of .280”.

The picture is about 35 shots in heavy wind.

Mike
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Ha ha …

My guns can’t do that. .

280” CTC or no greater than 1/2 inches tall or vertical, no way. I wish.

I’m going to work on the vertical tuning for my guns, but the barrel is probably the limiting factor, so any further tuning may not achieve the desired result.

In the mean time, you have given me some important guidance.

What a silly hobby!

Who would think grown men would do this?

JK….
 
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That is really an impressive set of groups and targets. There's 7 250's out of 8 ( counting the 4 groups and your sighters), no telling how many x's. So what it was in calm conditions, the combination still has to work together.( rifle and shooter). There's a lot of rimfires that can not do that let alone any of the other manufactured air rifles.

Very impressive Mike, plus the exciting thing for me is to see and read how far you and your rifles have come..
 
It’s definitely exciting to see that level of precision and consistency. Not to mention the shooter’s abilities. Do I see a N100 in the future?

Joe - I had a brief laugh because Mike tried to get an N100 100 yard event going last year for the Nationals and there wasn’t an appetite for it as I recall. I would love to see how both the high end rim fires and air rifles compare in this type of competition. Mike may have some additional insights, but it seemed there were not enough shooters in either category who wanted the event. Too bad, it’s a great idea for the sport. My opinion only. 😀

Tom
 
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