❓ How can I figure out if I'm a BAD SHOOTER —— or if I only have BAD GUNS?

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JungleShooter

JungleShooter

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Sep 5, 2018
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❓ How can I figure out if I'm a bad shooter — or if I only have bad guns? 



I'm serious, no joke.

Here're the groups sizes I'm getting — with the two setups:





🔶 (1) Artemis PP700 (.22cal)

I shoot the PP700 at 25y and get 1" to 1¼" groups — 10-shot groups.

➔ That seems far worse than what others on the forums seem to be getting with this gun — even without some of the extras I have. 😟 

I'm really trying to practice the fundamentals of marksmanship — and everything else I learned on the forums to get better groups, like:

▪Rested on front and rear bag

▪Only moderate power 14 to 16FPE in .22cal

▪Tried 2 different .22 barrels

▪Huma regulator; MV extreme spread around 15fps

▪Clear 3-12x scope

▪Pellets tried: JSB RS + Express + Domed 16 + Heavy + Polymag | H&N Sniper Light + FTT + FFT Power + Terminator | Crosman Domed + Copper + Destroyer



🔸➔ But these groups seem to be the best I can do, over half a dozen attempts, spread out over months, with the most precise pellets I found.







🔶 (2) Diana Skyhawk (Artemis P15) (.22cal)

I shoot the Skyhawk at 50y and get 1¼" to 1½" groups — 10-shot groups.

And I shoot it at 100y and get 3" groups (10 shots). Even when discounting a frequent flyer that's another 2" or 3" off. With the wind calm. Shots are evenly dispersed in groups.

I read so much about moa groups — yupp, mine are moa groups — 1 moa and 2 bonus moa, thank you very much. 😟 Appears like I'm shooting wrong — or do I have the wrong gun?

I try hard to get better groups:

▪Rested on bipod and rear bag

▪Barrel replaced with Lothar-Walther drop-in barrel (JSAR)

▪Only moderate power at 26FPE and at 30FPE, tuned 5% below the knee

▪Huma regulator; MV extreme spread around 10fps

▪Clear 3-18x50 scope

▪Pellets tried (those with * I tried both at 50y and 100y): JSB Domed 16* + Heavy* + Monster + Monster Redesigned + Hades + Polymag + Metalmag | H&N Sniper Magnum* + FTT + FFT Power + Baracuda* + Piledriver* | SIG Dagger*

And yes, I tried slugs in 5 different diameters and 15 weights, the best slugs group similar to the best pellets = 3" (10 shots)



🔸➔ But these groups are the best I can do, over half a dozen attempts, spread out over months, with the most precise pellets I found.





❓❓❓ So, are my guns bad? Or am I a bad shot?

➔ I have nothing to compare with — no other guns, no other shooters, no other recent shooting experience...: 

▪My only other shooting is decades ago, with the German assault rifle G3 during my military time — we cleaned it way more than we shot it. 😟 

▪Again, decades ago when I was 15 a super-nice uncle loaned me his Diana springer. After about 500 pellets I shot my first group with all 10's on the airgun target card, 5 shots, rested on a garbage bin.





➔ I'm genuinly puzzled — positively perplexed — or just plain nuts!! 🙃 

Any advice? 🤔 

Thank you!! 😊

Matthias


 
I have an X son in law who I tried to help shoot while he was married to my daughter. He was a pretty terrible shot. For him it was trigger release. You can do some reading on line and see if you can identify your problem. Sight alignment, trigger release and follow through do those three things correctly and you should be able to shoot dime sized croups or better at 25 yards.
 
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Buy a good rifle and pistol rest OR better yet vise and make sure you use bubble levels and shoot when there's no wind. May want to get a fresh eye exam too.

ALL of my 177 PP700s shoot hands down tighter groups than my 22. You might want to swap it to a 177.

The Artemis P15s-Diana Skyhawks are hit or miss (perhaps 35/65% not in favor) in regards to barrel lottery accuracy. Too bad they couldn't keep things good like the P12s where most were great. 2 out of 3 of mine didn't need barrel replacement.




 
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Buy a good rifle and pistol rest OR better yet vise and make sure you use bubble levels and shoot when there's no wind. May want to get a fresh eye exam too.

ALL of my 177 PP700s shoot hands down tighter groups than my 22. You might want to swap it to a 177.

The Artemis P15s-Diana Skyhawks are hit or miss (perhaps 35/65% not in favor) in regards to barrel lottery accuracy. Too bad they couldn't keep things good like the P12s where most were great. 2 out of 3 of mine didn't need barrel replacement.



Click to expand...

+ 1

Regards 

Enkey 
 
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First question, is your Pp700 still a pistol? If it is then your groups are just fine at 25yrds. Especially if the 3-12 scope is a rifle scope and you are all scrunched up trying to shoot it. That’s a skill that can be developed, but it takes time. If you turned it into a whacky little carbine, you’re still not doing too bad because it’s still ergonomically incorrect. As far as your Skylark goes, there are way too many factors to consider when you want to scrutinize your 100yrd groups. First is the pellet. Across all my .22’s, the 18gr JSB gives me the best 100yrd accuracy without venturing into the 25cal pellet weights and killing my .22’s velocity. Once you get them shooting at 50, they can fall apart at 100. Now you have to experiment with velocity. It can be an adjustment of just 10fps up or down that makes or breaks them at 100. The last thing I will mention when you start to question yourself, and I do it often when things aren’t going my way during testing, is follow through. What’s your gun doing when that trigger breaks and the gun goes off? This is where we all make mistakes because we are just so excited to shoot and don’t take the time to get everything just right. If you are in the bags right, if the pressure you are exerting on your gun is just right, when that shot breaks your scope picture will look the same every time. If one shot your crosshairs jump to the left of the bull then your next shot jumps to the right, you are going to struggle at 100 with an airgun. It’s because the shot process is so slow compared to a firearm. It just takes way too long for a projectile to leave the gun after you squeeze the trigger on an airgun. This amplifies all the little things we do wrong. Shooting a bullpup already puts us way behind the 8 ball at 100yrds. They just don’t lay in the bags like a traditional rifle. Add that your gun has a Ti tube and it’s foundation is considerably lighter than an Edgun, Taipan or Cricket, that’s another factor for keeping your gun planted during the shot process.
 
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Might want to try a Mantis X2: https://mantisx.com . It’s a sensor you attach to your rifle/pistol that will give you some objective data on how you are shooting over time. The X2 version works extremely well on my air rifles/pistols and has helped me to improve my shooting. This is not a silver bullet that will instantly improve your shooting; it will help you find specific issues/problems that you can work on to improve your shooting over time. I have also used it to help identify if I’m shooting poorly or shooting a bad lot of pellets. You can’t fix what you can’t measure. The Mantis X2 will give you a baseline measurement of your shooting skills and probably help answer your question.

Best of luck to you,

Dennis 
 
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I think those groups are fairly normal for a 10 shot group for those particular guns. Now if it was like that for a 5 shot group I would be more concerned?

I had an Air Max MKII which is similar to the PP700 and those groups sound about normal for me? Of course most of my friends who come over can out shoot me with my own guns.

I would expect sub inch at 50 with the Diana on a calm day? But I've never shot one? So, I would be disappointed in myself and/or the gun! LOL

I've got a little .22 Cricket pup that will do it with ease.It's the standard by which all my other guns are measured at 50 yds. Except for my FX Boss, it spanks everything from 50yds to the 100 mark.

It's always good to have a known shooter to compare any new gun too on a particular day to see if it's really me that is shooting poorly or if the wind is doing funny things to my groups? Also I would prefer to shoot four (5 shot) groups rather than two (10 shot) groups?

Great topic and sure have enjoyed the comment section!
 
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I think those groups are fairly normal for a 10 shot group for those particular guns. Now if it was like that for a 5 shot group I would be more concerned?

I had an Air Max MKII which is similar to the PP700 and those groups sound about normal for me? Of course most of my friends who come over can out shoot me with my own guns.

I would expect sub inch at 50 with the Diana on a calm day? But I've never shot one? So, I would be disappointed in myself and/or the gun! LOL

I've got a little .22 Cricket pup that will do it with ease.It's the standard by which all my other guns are measured at 50 yds. Except for my FX Boss, it spanks everything from 50yds to the 100 mark.

It's always good to have a known shooter to compare any new gun too on a particular day to see if it's really me that is shooting poorly or if the wind is doing funny things to my groups? Also I would prefer to shoot four (5 shot) groups rather than two (10 shot) groups?

Great topic and sure have enjoyed the comment section!
Click to expand...


That's what I was thinking... for those guns, with that number of shots and at that range... I'd be happy with those. Most folks will only talk about their 'best' groups and not average groups. I think you're right where you should be with those guns. There are days when I shoot better than others and some days I can pick up a particular gun and either not hit squat or cant miss with it. It's why we practice and have fun with the process. 


 
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First of good job for shooting 10shot groups. Thats the smallest acceptable ammount of shots to meassure accuracy. Second keep in mind alot of ppl shoot 3shot "groups" and cherrypick them. Its really rare to see true sub moa 100m airgun that can truely do it 95% of the time. I personally give zero credits for any 3shot groups they just dosent meassure anything. Every gun has its natural Poi circle and shooting 3shots rarely presents widests spots on that natural poi circle. If you shoot 5shot groups thats same story but you also have bit better clue about it. Increasing it to 10shots starts to be really close to truth and doing 10x10shots with piling target boards top to another for 10times gives you pretty accurate 100shot group on first board. If 95% of those 100 are within Moa circle Im ready to say its pretty surely sub moa airgun. No national rifle team approves 3shot groups or any serious firearm marksman so why should we? 
 
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One other aspect to look at when evaluating your groups is the distribution of the shots. By that I mean if out of ten shots you have 7 or 8 in a fairly good group but the other 2 or 3 are flyers that expand the size of the group then those 7 or 8 good ones tell you what the gun is capable of. But if the whole group is evenly distributed over a large group size then maybe the guns have problems.


 
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There are several techniques that can contribute to bad accuracy; trigger being the first. You should squeeze the trigger gradually increasing the pull until the gun goes off. It should come as a surprise. No yanking the trigger. Follow through is most important with airguns since velocity is lower than powderburners. Hold the gun on target until well after the gun goes off. Are the cross hairs still on target? Some people immediately drop the gun off target the instant the gun fires. Not good. Are you holding the gun too tight, too loose, too much cheek pressure, forend support, buttstock support. Then you can look at pellet quality, barrel cleanliness, loose parts, etc. Lotsa shooting practice helps too. Most air rifles are pretyy accurate. You can't just throw money at an expensive gun and expect to shoot int he "X" ring every time if you don't do your job.
 
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When I got my first quality PCP, after the initial zeroing, I would try grouping (5 shot groups) and would not be satisfied, knowing the gun could do better. I just needed more trigger time with it. So instead of fretting about shooting tiny groups. I started to plink, a lot. Hundreds of pellets, where the emphasis was on first round hits at various distances on small objects. Black walnut husks, chalk, etc. I was amazed at the accuracy while plinking, but did not have my form down when it came to grouping on paper. Slowly but surely the two have merged and more often than not I can shoot consecutive 5 shot groups at 50 yard under a dime. Not saying all the time. I know 10 shot groups yield more statistical data. But for my applications 5 shot, 1/2” groups at 50 yards are just as statically valid. 
 
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