❓ How can I figure out if I'm a BAD SHOOTER —— or if I only have BAD GUNS?

@Jungleshooter, do you have to shoot 10 shot groups? Why not 5 shot groups? If you have shot 5 shot groups, what are the corresponding group sizes at your stated distances? The PCPs you describe are not bench rest guns, so asking them to shoot 10 shot, MOA groups is a bit much. I would start again at 25 yards with the Skyhawk. Shoot 5 shot groups until you are satisfied (1/4” could be the goal), and then back to 40 yards, then finally maybe 1/2”, 50 yard, 5 shot groups? 100 yards is a long poke for a .22 and the wind plays a huge factor. 
 
When I had my PP700 in .22 the accuracy was pretty good but like Odoyle said the .177 barrels seem to shoot really well or pellet on pellet at 20-30 yards with crosman pellets. 



Like other said put it in a vise which will eliminate the shooter and test the accuracy of the gun itself and I also high recommend .177, all you need is the barrel which cost under 20 dollars at airgunarcheryfun.ca. you can even get a fancy polished and crowned version for 35 bucks or even a 16 inch polished and crowned version for 50. I have all 3 versions and they are all pellet on pellet at 30 yards. Due to the small size it's not so easy to held stead for longer shots but the gun IS very accurate in .177 and very accurate in .22 with JSB or crosman over 650fps. 
 
Wow, I just posted this last night super late — and so many of your already responded! THANK YOU! 😊

I'll address the responses and suggestions here in summary form.
Those where I have follow-up questions or that I will need to try yet are marked with an ❌.



🔶(1) Check the barrel:
❌ I'll make a separate post about that. ➔ Note that the Skyhawk was sold to me with a barrel upgrade to a Lothar Walter drop-in barrel, from JSAR. And that I tried not one but two .22 barrels in the PP700.



🔶❌(2) Ask someone to shoot a gun of theirs that has a proven precision.
➔ Yeah, that would show how bad I really am...! Good idea. But... — I just don't know any AG shooter here in Peru.
Time to make some friends, I guess.



🔶(3) Buy a full auto LCS SK19 and all this will not matter anymore.
➔ THAT, my friend, is a GREAT idea. 👍🏼😄
❌If someone will present me please with the second GREAT idea necessary to make this work — I'm all ears: How can I convince my wife to spend that kind of money?



🔶❌(4) Be careful to follow-through with each shot.
Vetmx wrote: "What’s your gun doing when that trigger breaks and the gun goes off? This is where we all make mistakes because we are just so excited to shoot and don’t take the time to get everything just right.
"If you are in the bags right, if the pressure you are exerting on your gun is just right, when that shot breaks your scope picture will look the same every time.
"If one shot your crosshairs jump to the left of the bull then your next shot jumps to the right, you are going to struggle at 100y with an airgun. It’s because the shot process is so slow compared to a firearm. It just takes way too long for a projectile to leave the gun after you squeeze the trigger on an airgun. This amplifies all the little things we do wrong."
➔ I think here is something I can improve on — I noticed the difference when hunting pigeons — more DRTs when I remembered the follow-through.



🔶(5) Questions about the gun rests I use:
➔ Skyhawk: Front = bipod, swivel and tilt unlocked | Rear = sock with light and very smooth plastic chips (very soft)
Bench = sturdy folding table (yes, not made from cement like some benches....) —— ❌ Would that make such a big difference?

➔ PP700: Front = sock with plastic chips | Rear = same.
Though sometime I only use a folded towel for either front or rear. —— ❌ Would that make such a big difference?
Bench = wood board on crates



🔶(6) Have a good shooter try your guns.
➔ I don't know any in Peru.... 😟
❌Maybe it's time to make some airgunning friends!
But a bit complicated with an extremely strict corona lock-down in Peru.



❌🔶(7) On the forums it is common to post 5-shot group. You shoot 10-shot groups — so comparing 5-shot to 10-shot groups is skewed.
jiikuu wrote: "Thats the smallest acceptable ammount of shots to meassure accuracy."
➔ Yeah, I learned that from Ballistipedia.com — and decided against the 5-shot groups. (Well, 3 or 4 groups of 5 shots would also be statistially sound.)



🔶(8) Try a Mantis X2 sensor on the gun to examine your shooting errors: https://mantisx.com
➔ Entry level $100. Live fire version X3 $170.
❌ Interesting option. I'll check that out.




🔶(9) To evaluate groups correctly they should be somewhat evenly spaced out (or "normally distributed").
➔ Yes, my groups are usually that way. I actually discount the flyers at 100y when there are 1 or 2 shots that are 2-3 inches away from all the others. But not even that way I get near the precision I read about. ✔️



🔶(10) Check with a gun vice.
➔ Interesting. I don't supposed they sell those in Peru. I'll keep that in mind for my next US order.


🔶(11) Use slightly different velocities.
➔ Skyhawk: So far I tried 3 power settings (in FPE, for the JSB Domed 16gr): 30, 29, 26.5 ✔️

➔ PP700: So far I tried 3 power settings (in FPE, for JSB 14.3 and/or H&N 14gr): 15, 14.3, 12 ✔️



🔶(12) Attempt to shoot ragged holes at 20y before attempting groups at 50y.
➔ Not sure I'd be happy shooting at 20y — though the pest animals would be very happy if they are safe from my shots beyond 20y.... 😄
I understand that wind and ballistics will open groups up exponentially, so getting 1" at 50y will not guarantee 2" at 100y.
However, (a) I'm trying to shoot things/ pests at longer ranges and (b) I'm comparing my results with results I find on the forums — and there is a huge gap. That's what got me writing this post in the first place.... 👍🏼😄


🔶(13) Sort and weigh and lube the pellets.
➔ I almost always buy only high quality brand pellets (JSB, H&N).
And if I was trying to shrink a 1" group at 100y down to 3/4" — I might sort and weigh. But I'm stuck at 3" groups....
And it seems there are top level competitors that get away without all that....
Just saying. 😊



🔶(14) Clean your barrel.
➔ I thought I could get by without that — there are some very good shooters and AG nuts who say it's not necessary (except for the peace of mind of the shooter).
Well, I finally buckled under the disappointment of my shooting results and bought a Patchworm kit. Nice kit.
However, the results after 3 ballistol patches and 4 dry were not really any better. 😟



🔶(15) Switch the PP700 from .22cal to .177.
➔ I kind of like .22 — and would making better groups really require a change as drastic as changing caliber?
I did consider getting the PP700 in .177 — but the pellets are so tiny, their BC so poor, and buying another whole set of ammo....? I'm desperate, just not quite that desperate yet. 😊




THANKS A LOT for all your help!!

Matthias 😊


 
@jungleshooter, the thing is if you can’t achieve ragged one hole groups at 20 and 25 yards with your Skyhawk. You can’t reasonably expect to do so at longer distances. Very few PCPs are able to shoot MOA 10 shot groups consistently. Well, maybe some guns can, but that still leaves the shooter to do their part. In your case and with these two guns you’re probably better off in a practical sense with five shot groups. Your Skyhawk may not be able to shoot 10 shot, MOA groups. It’s the nature of its design. Good luck!🍀 
 
Wow, I just posted this last night super late — and so many of your already responded! THANK YOU!
1f60a.svg


I'll address the responses and suggestions here in summary form.
Those where I have follow-up questions or that I will need to try yet are marked with an
274c.svg
.



1f536.svg
(1) Check the barrel:

274c.svg
I'll make a separate post about that. ➔ Note that the Skyhawk was sold to me with a barrel upgrade to a Lothar Walter drop-in barrel, from JSAR. And that I tried not one but two .22 barrels in the PP700.



1f536.svg
274c.svg
(2) Ask someone to shoot a gun of theirs that has a proven precision.

➔ Yeah, that would show how bad I really am...! Good idea. But... — I just don't know any AG shooter here in Peru.
Time to make some friends, I guess.



1f536.svg
(3) Buy a full auto LCS SK19 and all this will not matter anymore.

➔ THAT, my friend, is a GREAT idea.
1f44d-1f3fc.svg
1f604.svg

274c.svg
If someone will present me please with the second GREAT idea necessary to make this work — I'm all ears: How can I convince my wife to spend that kind of money?



1f536.svg
274c.svg
(4) Be careful to follow-through with each shot.

Vetmx wrote: "What’s your gun doing when that trigger breaks and the gun goes off? This is where we all make mistakes because we are just so excited to shoot and don’t take the time to get everything just right.
"If you are in the bags right, if the pressure you are exerting on your gun is just right, when that shot breaks your scope picture will look the same every time.
"If one shot your crosshairs jump to the left of the bull then your next shot jumps to the right, you are going to struggle at 100y with an airgun. It’s because the shot process is so slow compared to a firearm. It just takes way too long for a projectile to leave the gun after you squeeze the trigger on an airgun. This amplifies all the little things we do wrong."
➔ I think here is something I can improve on — I noticed the difference when hunting pigeons — more DRTs when I remembered the follow-through.



1f536.svg
(5) Questions about the gun rests I use:

➔ Skyhawk: Front = bipod, swivel and tilt unlocked | Rear = sock with light and very smooth plastic chips (very soft)
Bench = sturdy folding table (yes, not made from cement like some benches....) ——
274c.svg
Would that make such a big difference?

➔ PP700: Front = sock with plastic chips | Rear = same.
Though sometime I only use a folded towel for either front or rear. ——
274c.svg
Would that make such a big difference?
Bench = wood board on crates



1f536.svg
(6) Have a good shooter try your guns.

➔ I don't know any in Peru....
1f61f.svg

274c.svg
Maybe it's time to make some airgunning friends!
But a bit complicated with an extremely strict corona lock-down in Peru.



274c.svg
1f536.svg
(7) On the forums it is common to post 5-shot group. You shoot 10-shot groups — so comparing 5-shot to 10-shot groups is skewed.

jiikuu wrote: "Thats the smallest acceptable ammount of shots to meassure accuracy."
➔ Yeah, I learned that from Ballistipedia.com — and decided against the 5-shot groups. (Well, 3 or 4 groups of 5 shots would also be statistially sound.)



1f536.svg
(8) Try a Mantis X2 sensor on the gun to examine your shooting errors: https://mantisx.com

➔ Entry level $100. Live fire version X3 $170.
274c.svg
Interesting option. I'll check that out.




1f536.svg
(9) To evaluate groups correctly they should be somewhat evenly spaced out (or "normally distributed").

➔ Yes, my groups are usually that way. I actually discount the flyers at 100y when there are 1 or 2 shots that are 2-3 inches away from all the others. But not even that way I get near the precision I read about.
2714.svg




1f536.svg
(10) Check with a gun vice.

➔ Interesting. I don't supposed they sell those in Peru. I'll keep that in mind for my next US order.


1f536.svg
(11) Use slightly different velocities.

➔ Skyhawk: So far I tried 3 power settings (in FPE, for the JSB Domed 16gr): 30, 29, 26.5
2714.svg


➔ PP700: So far I tried 3 power settings (in FPE, for JSB 14.3 and/or H&N 14gr): 15, 14.3, 12
2714.svg




1f536.svg
(12) Attempt to shoot ragged holes at 20y before attempting groups at 50y.

➔ Not sure I'd be happy shooting at 20y — though the pest animals would be very happy if they are safe from my shots beyond 20y....
1f604.svg

I understand that wind and ballistics will open groups up exponentially, so getting 1" at 50y will not guarantee 2" at 100y.
However, (a) I'm trying to shoot things/ pests at longer ranges and (b) I'm comparing my results with results I find on the forums — and there is a huge gap. That's what got me writing this post in the first place....
1f44d-1f3fc.svg
1f604.svg



1f536.svg
(13) Sort and weigh and lube the pellets.

➔ I almost always buy only high quality brand pellets (JSB, H&N).
And if I was trying to shrink a 1" group at 100y down to 3/4" — I might sort and weigh. But I'm stuck at 3" groups....
And it seems there are top level competitors that get away without all that....
Just saying.
1f60a.svg




1f536.svg
(14) Clean your barrel.

➔ I thought I could get by without that — there are some very good shooters and AG nuts who say it's not necessary (except for the peace of mind of the shooter).
Well, I finally buckled under the disappointment of my shooting results and bought a Patchworm kit. Nice kit.
However, the results after 3 ballistol patches and 4 dry were not really any better.
1f61f.svg




1f536.svg
(15) Switch the PP700 from .22cal to .177.

➔ I kind of like .22 — and would making better groups really require a change as drastic as changing caliber?
I did consider getting the PP700 in .177 — but the pellets are so tiny, their BC so poor, and buying another whole set of ammo....? I'm desperate, just not quite that desperate yet.
1f60a.svg





THANKS A LOT for all your help!!

Matthias
1f60a.svg



Screw the specs screw the ballistics one hole groups is one hole groups you ain't shooting 150 yards.

Lotsa People shooting poor ballistics cheap pellets daily and whacking so many birds birds and critters bc don't mean crap if your gun don't like the high BC ammo.

Real world first hand experience matters of you be too technical in life you the real loser.

You can't even imagine how many so called superior scopes based on specs on paper via manufacturers I returned for refund its crazy.

Don't live your life solely based on specs and lose out living a real wholesome interesting life.

I bought a lot of crappy spec items that are better than what was stated and vice versa.
 
Don't force people to hate you by recommending things solely on specs alone without any first hand experience.with any items including scopes or pellets.

That's even worse than bs youtubers IMHO.

Recommending then buyers go for it then maybe dissatisfied are you gonna buy all the items from them if they are unable to return for refund?

I aim to try to get people the best value for their hard earned money. I rarely push high dollar scopes because honestly I dont think they are worth half of what they cost but I still buy them because even I am stupid sometimes. Same goes with questionable QC JSB brand pellets and extremely questionable QC brands of mid to high dollar brands of airguns that paid Youtubers pushed.