I shot this target today in very slight breeze(almost calm). 10 shots at 100 yards:
How accurate do you think this is for 100 yards in almost calm conditions?
- Thread starter Ghostranger169
- Start date
The numbers to the right of each target are c-t-c group sizes for those 10 shots at that target. Numbers to the left of each target is distances from POA(center of the bull) to center of outermost hole. To me, it seems like this represents 100 yard accuracy(under these specific conditions) of a little over 2"(1.02" away from POA); meaning that I could reasonably expect to hit a 2.04" target most of the time, under these conditions. Would that be correct?
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Yes, .22 slugs out of the Crown.
I just shot these 2 at 150 yards. Even though I have shot smaller groups at 150 yards the consistent accuracy isn't there. Small sample size, but judging from the size of the groups and distance away from POA on these 2 targets, I'd be doing good to be able to hit a 6" gong most of the time at 150 yards in those conditions. Things seem to fall apart somewhere between 125 and 150 yards(probably run outta BC).
I just shot these 2 at 150 yards. Even though I have shot smaller groups at 150 yards the consistent accuracy isn't there. Small sample size, but judging from the size of the groups and distance away from POA on these 2 targets, I'd be doing good to be able to hit a 6" gong most of the time at 150 yards in those conditions. Things seem to fall apart somewhere between 125 and 150 yards(probably run outta BC).
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That upper left , best of the card , is differently a ground squirrel getter.
I think if you're able to do your part, they'll shrink even more.
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So does everybody agree that this is NOT a 100 yard sub-MOA gun/scope/ammo combo, even though it DID shoot 1 ten shot group that was sub-MOA at 100 yards?
And would you agree that this IS a 100 yard 2 MOA gun/scope/ammo under these conditions?
And would you agree that this IS a 100 yard 2 MOA gun/scope/ammo under these conditions?
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@Ghostranger169 I am not a 100 yard shooter, but if I was looking at MOA or sub-MOA then those targets would tell me I'm not there with that combination.
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I don't see the slug weight or speed in your post. I had a Crown in .22 and it wasn't able to get 25.39 Knockouts to go fast enough with a 600mm barrel and they wouldn't stabilize and the groups were similar to yours. Max FPS was only 893 with hammer spring & port maxed and reg at 150. Your 18.1 pellet group should be much tighter and it may be that they are running too fast. Around 850-875 would be ideal for those pellets and they should easily cluster under an inch at 100 yds. Just my experience with the rifle I had, your setup may be much different.
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Ghost ranger….I certainly get your point, but there is a long forum precedence of needing to only shoot one sub moa group to call your gun a sub moa shooter. It’s a sign of the times. If you started a thread specifically for the purpose of determining a guns average accuracy by shooting 10 10 shot groups on a single piece of paper at a particular distance….nobody would participate.
Mike
Mike
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During a lucky session I can go out to 100Y in very light wind and shoot a really good EBR100 practice card, highest so far is "EDIT - a 244 score" using 22 cal 25 RDM with a 35 cal plug. The very next card will likely be a lot less and it could be months(when I was still trying) before I'll get another 230+ card. It's discouraging enough that I hardly shoot that distance with pellets anymore.
It is easier with slugs as far as wind goes but the same thing happens, flyers or for whatever other reason I can't put in a good score. I shot a really good card the first day I tried 42gr swaged slugs on a EBR100 practice card. Then I tried a N50 at 100Y the next nice day using whatever that special scoring is from the thread Mike N started, and man it was not good, so I didn't post the score or the photo, LOL.
I decided that shooting generously sized steel out to 300Y with slugs was more to my liking, that is on the rare occasion the wind isn't going crazy.
It is easier with slugs as far as wind goes but the same thing happens, flyers or for whatever other reason I can't put in a good score. I shot a really good card the first day I tried 42gr swaged slugs on a EBR100 practice card. Then I tried a N50 at 100Y the next nice day using whatever that special scoring is from the thread Mike N started, and man it was not good, so I didn't post the score or the photo, LOL.
I decided that shooting generously sized steel out to 300Y with slugs was more to my liking, that is on the rare occasion the wind isn't going crazy.
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A couple thoughts....
First off, you're shooting 10 shot groups. Not often to see anybody sharing 10 shot groups at 100 yards, with slugs or pellets. So, your groups are already statistically going to be larger than all the cherrypickers showing up with their 100 yard sub-moa 5 shot group and trying to act like that is just the norm for their rig.
I started this thread over a year ago, questioning the trend towards slugs and the FACT that the slug shooters weren't shooting better scores at 100 yard Xtreme Field Target. https://www.airgunnation.com/threads/the-trend-towards-slugs.923817/
Well, it's been roughly 18 months since that post, with many monthly matches, and we still aren't seeing slugs outshoot the high BC pellets. Part of that is the fact that folks rarely show up to shoot slugs, but part of that is also the fact that folks are rarely brave enough to show up to shoot slugs. I wonder why?
I've said it before, I'm not anti-slug and would love to see a big leap in external ballistics capabilities for the airgun shooting hobby, But I have not seen the huge benefits of slugs that seems to be such a prevalent claim on the airgun forums these days. On paper, yes, slugs should be better. But you still gotta hit what you're aiming at for it to count.
So, back to the original question.....I think your 100 yard slug groups in calm conditions are not better than what most guys are CLAMING, but are likely MUCH, MUCH, MUCH better than what most guys are actually shooting. And if somebody wants to fight the "slugs are better" argument, please start with showing us 5 or 6, 10 shot groups at 100 yards like the OP did.
First off, you're shooting 10 shot groups. Not often to see anybody sharing 10 shot groups at 100 yards, with slugs or pellets. So, your groups are already statistically going to be larger than all the cherrypickers showing up with their 100 yard sub-moa 5 shot group and trying to act like that is just the norm for their rig.
Yes, I agree there. There was mathematical discussion shared on here a few weeks ago, I think it was linked by Utah airguns, but was originally by Bryan Litz, It basically explains the statistics behind what you said (that I just quoted) and what Mike Nisch also alluded to a few comments ago.
I started this thread over a year ago, questioning the trend towards slugs and the FACT that the slug shooters weren't shooting better scores at 100 yard Xtreme Field Target. https://www.airgunnation.com/threads/the-trend-towards-slugs.923817/
Well, it's been roughly 18 months since that post, with many monthly matches, and we still aren't seeing slugs outshoot the high BC pellets. Part of that is the fact that folks rarely show up to shoot slugs, but part of that is also the fact that folks are rarely brave enough to show up to shoot slugs. I wonder why?
I've said it before, I'm not anti-slug and would love to see a big leap in external ballistics capabilities for the airgun shooting hobby, But I have not seen the huge benefits of slugs that seems to be such a prevalent claim on the airgun forums these days. On paper, yes, slugs should be better. But you still gotta hit what you're aiming at for it to count.
So, back to the original question.....I think your 100 yard slug groups in calm conditions are not better than what most guys are CLAMING, but are likely MUCH, MUCH, MUCH better than what most guys are actually shooting. And if somebody wants to fight the "slugs are better" argument, please start with showing us 5 or 6, 10 shot groups at 100 yards like the OP did.
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I'm liking this thread.
A lot.
It's so... — real (for lack of a better word).
Real — as in realistic — or real life.
Thanks for the honest reporting.
I look at how much chance is involved in one group of only five shots — and how representative or how repeatable it is for the gun/shooter combination.
➔ It is... NOT.
Cheers,
Matthias
A lot.
It's so... — real (for lack of a better word).
Real — as in realistic — or real life.
Thanks for the honest reporting.
I look at how much chance is involved in one group of only five shots — and how representative or how repeatable it is for the gun/shooter combination.
➔ It is... NOT.
Cheers,
Matthias
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The one data point you fall back on is the XFT, with a small amount of scores shooting slugs out of a majority pellets for comparison…A couple thoughts....
First off, you're shooting 10 shot groups. Not often to see anybody sharing 10 shot groups at 100 yards, with slugs or pellets. So, your groups are already statistically going to be larger than all the cherrypickers showing up with their 100 yard sub-moa 5 shot group and trying to act like that is just the norm for their rig.
Yes, I agree there. There was mathematical discussion shared on here a few weeks ago, I think it was linked by Utah airguns, but was originally by Bryan Litz, It basically explains the statistics behind what you said (that I just quoted) and what Mike Nisch also alluded to a few comments ago.
I started this thread over a year ago, questioning the trend towards slugs and the FACT that the slug shooters weren't shooting better scores at 100 yard Xtreme Field Target. https://www.airgunnation.com/threads/the-trend-towards-slugs.923817/
Well, it's been roughly 18 months since that post, with many monthly matches, and we still aren't seeing slugs outshoot the high BC pellets. Part of that is the fact that folks rarely show up to shoot slugs, but part of that is also the fact that folks are rarely brave enough to show up to shoot slugs. I wonder why?
I've said it before, I'm not anti-slug and would love to see a big leap in external ballistics capabilities for the airgun shooting hobby, But I have not seen the huge benefits of slugs that seems to be such a prevalent claim on the airgun forums these days. On paper, yes, slugs should be better. But you still gotta hit what you're aiming at for it to count.
So, back to the original question.....I think your 100 yard slug groups in calm conditions are not better than what most guys are CLAMING, but are likely MUCH, MUCH, MUCH better than what most guys are actually shooting. And if somebody wants to fight the "slugs are better" argument, please start with showing us 5 or 6, 10 shot groups at 100 yards like the OP did.
But how about a much larger comparison slugs to pellets, such as the PRS (NRL-22) match at RMAC? There were 80 shooters (Pro Division) and targets were from 20 yards to 200 yards. The shooter had the option of shooting pellets or slugs….
The shooter that WON the pellet class last year (2021 had two classes, pellet and slug) shot pellets again this year and finished 18th, and was the highest pellet shooter. All 17 shooters above him shot slugs! And remember, they had the choice of pellets or slugs.
At the NRL-22 Nationals, shooters could shoot pellets or slugs. All of them shot slugs. Slug technology is improving so fast that what was true even two years ago is no longer the case. Guys that are shooting PRS type matches are shooting slugs that have BCs of 0.12, maybe even better. With 100 yard accuracy in no wind conditions equivalent to pellets.
Another case would be the Benchrest Sihlouette (BRS) matches shot monthly near Waco Texas. There are two pellets classes, 35 and 80 FPE, and a slug class. The Slug class has produced the highest scores every match since they started allowing slugs.
I love shooting XFT, but the vast majority of shooters choose pellets because slugs aren’t allowed at the EBR EFT GP finals, nor can GP points be earned at seasonal events leading up to the finals. And let’s face it, the top EFT shooters are shooting pellets, not slugs, plus EFT only goes out to 100 yards. IMHO the argument was settled at RMAC 2022, slugs were vastly superior to pellets…
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Hey Mike, You working overnight shifts too?
Yeah, we've had this conversation a couple times. I agree with everything you said. The kicker to all of that is that you're talking about the 60-80+ fpe stuff. When the sky is the limit (ie big heavy slugs shooting at unlimited power levels) yes, as I've said before, that is where slugs pull ahead.
I don't think Ghostranger ever mentioned what slug weight he is using but I don't think Crown's can be cranked up that high?, AND he mentions shooting 18.1grain pellets from the same gun. So, he's not talking about rimfire power level slugs. I was going with the context of what was presented.
As for top shooters in XFT choosing pellets? Well I'm not one of the top shooters but if I could find a slug at a power level that my guns are capable of, that could outshoot the MRDs, I would shoot them for XFT. And that's my point-slugs at reasonable (read airgun) power levels simply don't outshoot high BC pellets in the same fpe range. (yes I could have been more clear in that distinction in the post you quoted).
Slugs are only "the future" when they're shot at rimfire power levels. Then you're at that "a rose by any other name" conundrum.
But back to OP's point, how do his accuracy results compare to other 100 yard slug shooters? Show us 5 or 6, 10 shot groups from your rimfire power level slug, although it'll be an apples and oranges comparison.
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@Ghostranger169
100 yards NSA 24.8 .218 1015 fps
Fx maverick 700mm .22 superior liner
Those are 1 inch spacing between the rings I believe.
Showing the full target. I am sure there is another group shot in the lower target at the 12 position. Not slow shooting, just wanted to see large number of shot groupings. Shooting 2 MOA.
100 yards NSA 24.8 .218 1015 fps
Fx maverick 700mm .22 superior liner
Those are 1 inch spacing between the rings I believe.
Showing the full target. I am sure there is another group shot in the lower target at the 12 position. Not slow shooting, just wanted to see large number of shot groupings. Shooting 2 MOA.
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