When you blokes are all done with measuring and sorting, if you still can't get those JSB's to shoot I would be happy to take them off your hands,lol
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Help! My latest batch of JSB 18.13 are shooting like a shot gun. *UPDATE*
- Thread starter cjb
- Start date
Trent,
"... The label on the back of the pellets says “4 5.52″. when I measure them with my calipers they are 5.50 and smaller...."
It is almost impossible (not quite as there is a way) to accurately measure the soft lead JSBs with calipers or a micrometer. Almost invariably folks get measurements that are too small because the tiniest pressure on the lead gives a small reading. 1/100th of a mm (0.00039") is a tiny measure.
I think you have probably discovered that now with your sizing plate.
Kind regards, Harry in Mount Ousley.
"... The label on the back of the pellets says “4 5.52″. when I measure them with my calipers they are 5.50 and smaller...."
It is almost impossible (not quite as there is a way) to accurately measure the soft lead JSBs with calipers or a micrometer. Almost invariably folks get measurements that are too small because the tiniest pressure on the lead gives a small reading. 1/100th of a mm (0.00039") is a tiny measure.
I think you have probably discovered that now with your sizing plate.
Kind regards, Harry in Mount Ousley.
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Well, that's part of my concern.....what if my barrel only like 5.54 pellets. They are hardly common. I do have a FX Impact on order, but the barrels come from the same factory so I may have the same problem.
Are there "big" pellets out there? I thought JSB were some of the biggest?
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Hi Chris,
Here are some groups from last week. FX Royal 300 .22, Regulated, 50m Outdoor Range.
This first group was the first of the night and I was happy with that. It was with H&N Baracuda Accurate Heavy 21.14gr. They had been weighed and caliper measured into a set of 7.
These last groups (I shot the other end of the card to separate the brands) are the JSB 18.1 pellets.
I only have 1.5 hours on Friday night to shoot in my local outdoor range, so testing is frustratingly slow, and I'm not a patient man. Overall, my groups with any pellets are all over the place, but I have not settled on anything. I need to have the pellets sorted and then need to chrono with the sorted pellets to see if the velocities are consistent. At the moment, nothing is consistent, so I'm chasing my tail.
I am enjoying the learning experience and as an engineer, the geeking and measurebating is fun for me too. I'm sure there are loads of "just shoot from the tin" guys who will roll their eyes, but if my gun was shooting 1/2" out of the tin I wouldn't be chasing this.
The next test will be after Easter and before I go on holidays. If only I have more space and time.
Thanks,
Trent.
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More updates......
Shot a 10 shot string of 5.53mm 20.8gr H&N Baracuda Accurate Heavy with a Stand Dev of 2.378
844
843
837
844
843
839
841
843
843
844
I'd say my pressure regulator is OK.
I used these pellets as they are sorted and on the fringe of my sorted tin.....and I had 10 of them.
Hope to get to the range this Friday depending on the weather.
Trent.
Shot a 10 shot string of 5.53mm 20.8gr H&N Baracuda Accurate Heavy with a Stand Dev of 2.378
844
843
837
844
843
839
841
843
843
844
I'd say my pressure regulator is OK.
I used these pellets as they are sorted and on the fringe of my sorted tin.....and I had 10 of them.
Hope to get to the range this Friday depending on the weather.
Trent.
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Being an engineer I presume you have measured the ID of the breech end of the ST barrel.
What does it measure?
There is nothing to be gained with PCPs by using pellets with skirts bigger than will stay put when you tip the muzzle down.
H&N do make Baracudas in 5.53 and I think in 5.54mm. But don't hold your breath waiting for Alcock and Pierce or whoever to import the extreme sizes.
Could I suggest you drop the power back to 850 no higher than 880 fps as a start with the JSBs and repeat the 50 m shoot in good air.
I presume you are using wind flags/indicators, at least 3 to 5, over the 50 m, and are giving the nearest-to-you ones a little more bias than those closer to the target; but try to wait for them to hang the same for each shot.
And keep the barrel CLEAN. Baracudas are dirty so if you are mixing pellet types, perhaps clean before going to the JSBs.
In BR competition we don't expect barrels to last more than 50 or so shots before cleaning.
What you should expect at best under best conditions using flags : My FX Elite has the same barrel as yours:
Kind regards, Harry.
What does it measure?
There is nothing to be gained with PCPs by using pellets with skirts bigger than will stay put when you tip the muzzle down.
H&N do make Baracudas in 5.53 and I think in 5.54mm. But don't hold your breath waiting for Alcock and Pierce or whoever to import the extreme sizes.
Could I suggest you drop the power back to 850 no higher than 880 fps as a start with the JSBs and repeat the 50 m shoot in good air.
I presume you are using wind flags/indicators, at least 3 to 5, over the 50 m, and are giving the nearest-to-you ones a little more bias than those closer to the target; but try to wait for them to hang the same for each shot.
And keep the barrel CLEAN. Baracudas are dirty so if you are mixing pellet types, perhaps clean before going to the JSBs.
In BR competition we don't expect barrels to last more than 50 or so shots before cleaning.
What you should expect at best under best conditions using flags : My FX Elite has the same barrel as yours:
Kind regards, Harry.
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Thanks Harry,
No I haven't measured the ID of the barrel. I assume there is a correct tool for measuring the ID of the breach (my standard calipers wont get in there). Otherwise the barrel has to come off.....I'll have to google that one. I have read lots of your other posts and I'm learning, but still very new to the PCP game. I noticed the difference in skirt when rolling both the Baracuda and the JSB. The Baracuda roll 90 degrees in 10cm, while the JSBs are more like 20. i.e. the Baracuda have a larger skirt to head ratio. I have a TR Tobb Resizer in the mail too, so that will standardize things, but not sure if that's worth the time.
I'll have another crack at the JSBs. I have never, ever got a good group with them. I do clean my barrels after every shoot, and have shot the JSBs on clean barrels.
By my calculations if the 21.1 are shooting at 840fps, then with the same energy the 18.1 will be at 910fps....a little hot. I do get quite different chrono measurements with the 21.1 being from 790fps to 840fps on different days over a few months, depending on altitude, temperature etc.....within the string they are ok, but the strings are not overly consistent week to week.
I like the group computer program. Care to share what that is? Life's not life without measurable data
Thanks,
Trent.
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Hi Trent,
The computer app is "On Target". It is free in basic form still I think.
http://www.ontargetshooting.com/
You can work through it; I'd probably confuse you if I started explaining computer stuff. But if I can work it I'm sure you will too.
The JSB pellet will probably be a little short of giving the same fpe, partly because the heavier Baracuda spends a little more time in the barrel undergoing thrust and acceleration.
However I have had the 18.1 JSB hang in with very good groups to well above 900.
There is something going on there. You seem to have the bases covered. It just could be as you two surmise, that that batch of pellets just is not up to par for some obscure reason. Those barrels are specifically set up for that JSB pellet, though mine at least is happy with some others ... So I'm out of ideas presently but will keep watch on your progress.
Best regards, Harry.
The computer app is "On Target". It is free in basic form still I think.
http://www.ontargetshooting.com/
You can work through it; I'd probably confuse you if I started explaining computer stuff. But if I can work it I'm sure you will too.
The JSB pellet will probably be a little short of giving the same fpe, partly because the heavier Baracuda spends a little more time in the barrel undergoing thrust and acceleration.
However I have had the 18.1 JSB hang in with very good groups to well above 900.
There is something going on there. You seem to have the bases covered. It just could be as you two surmise, that that batch of pellets just is not up to par for some obscure reason. Those barrels are specifically set up for that JSB pellet, though mine at least is happy with some others ... So I'm out of ideas presently but will keep watch on your progress.
Best regards, Harry.
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Thanks Harry,
I really appreciate the support.
Is there any point in removing my barrel and manually pushing pellets through. I have read a few people trying that to see what impact there is on differing pellets. It seems there are just 3 grub screws holding the barrel in place. I think I can manage that. When its off I can measure the ID of the breach.
I'll take a look at the hammer spring tensioner to see if it's moved. I marked it when I had the JSBs at 880fps, however when is the last time a spring tensioner got tighter on its own...hmmmmm
Where do you get your JSB pellets from. Might be worth trying another batch. I can melt these current down into a dive weight.
Aaaaanyway. More research, more fun. tighter groups await.
Cheers,
Trent
I really appreciate the support.
Is there any point in removing my barrel and manually pushing pellets through. I have read a few people trying that to see what impact there is on differing pellets. It seems there are just 3 grub screws holding the barrel in place. I think I can manage that. When its off I can measure the ID of the breach.
I'll take a look at the hammer spring tensioner to see if it's moved. I marked it when I had the JSBs at 880fps, however when is the last time a spring tensioner got tighter on its own...hmmmmm
Where do you get your JSB pellets from. Might be worth trying another batch. I can melt these current down into a dive weight.
Aaaaanyway. More research, more fun. tighter groups await.
Cheers,
Trent
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I doubt pulling the barrel will be any advantage yet. If the pellets are not dropping through the barrel the skirts are obviously big enough and would be sealing. You could gently poke the head of a pellet into the muzzle to assess resistance. If there is some resistance and it does not just slide in to the skirt then I doubt head size is a major problem.
If you wish to see what that ST "rifling" in the muzzle does to the pellet, fill 18 inches of pillow stuffing into a 4 inch polypipe and shoot a pellet into it. try to center it. You will find the pellet in a wad of stuffing about 9" to a foot in the pipe. The pellet will have 5 flats around the head where it has skimmed through. It will not show defined normal lands and grooved and it does not come out spinning coincident with the actual 1:16" "rifling".
I got my last JSBs from Potter but that could have been 4 or 5 years ago as I buy like ten or twenty tins in a lot.
Your only other bet is to get Cometa pellets which are also made by JSB. I think Alcock and Pierce may import those but they are in some of the gun shops the travelers visit. Also AA brand are available I think from AusArms in Sydney. AA have their own dies at the JSB factory and have had a good reputation over the years for quality. That would be your nearest alternative . Get a tin and see what happens.
Regards, Harry.
If you wish to see what that ST "rifling" in the muzzle does to the pellet, fill 18 inches of pillow stuffing into a 4 inch polypipe and shoot a pellet into it. try to center it. You will find the pellet in a wad of stuffing about 9" to a foot in the pipe. The pellet will have 5 flats around the head where it has skimmed through. It will not show defined normal lands and grooved and it does not come out spinning coincident with the actual 1:16" "rifling".
I got my last JSBs from Potter but that could have been 4 or 5 years ago as I buy like ten or twenty tins in a lot.
Your only other bet is to get Cometa pellets which are also made by JSB. I think Alcock and Pierce may import those but they are in some of the gun shops the travelers visit. Also AA brand are available I think from AusArms in Sydney. AA have their own dies at the JSB factory and have had a good reputation over the years for quality. That would be your nearest alternative . Get a tin and see what happens.
Regards, Harry.
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This is a group I shot last year when people first started complaining about JSB pellets, if I remember correctly velocity was around 930fps but I have since detuned the Huntsman slightly but it will group like this with both 15.9 & 18.1 pellets but won't shoot any thing from the H&N range. As Harry mentioned were you using wind flags, it doesn't take much of a breeze to blow a group to pieces.Trent, how do the pellets feed out of the magazine on your FX? The pellets were clipping on the exit side of the magazines for my Royale 400, a bit of work with the Dremel made feeding smoother and eliminated flyers with my rifle, should add its .177 and it does not like JSB pellets.Edit; forgot to add this was at 50yds or was it metres? I need to write these things down,lol and the verniers were zeroed at .22 that's why I have them on the outer edges of the holes.
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Strikey, on that target cardboard, shoot one shot squarely, measure the OD of the lead mark and zero the calipers to that measurement. It will generally be about 0.218 depending on the choke.
That's a nice group. ... Best regards, Harry.
That's a nice group. ... Best regards, Harry.
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Thanks for the tip on measuring, Harry, will try that next time. I shot this group and posted it last year when there were rumours of the quality of JSB pellets but I am not seeing any issues, perhaps it may be the LW barrel, I think everyone is quick to blame the pellet, there are a lot of other factors that will influence group size.
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Beware - Contains massively unhelpful Nerd data.
I made it to the range and the conditions were perfect. Not a breath of wind, mild and a little humid. 50 Meters Outdoor Benchrest. FX Royale 300 .22. Bipod and rear sandbag.
I had my measured an weighed JSB 18.1 in a box and my H&N Baracuda also measured and weighed. Here are the full results.
Most targets were 6 shots. Some were 5 where I only had 5 pellets in that sorted set.
I had 3 sub MOA groups
Target #7
H&N Baracuda Accurate Heavy 5.53 head 20.9 Grain
Target 8
H&N Baracuda Accurate Heavy 5.53 head 20.9 Grain
Target #14
JSB 18.1 - 5.52 head and 18.2 gr - NOTE Dirty Barrels Last 6 shots of the day.
I used my Chrono to measure all my shots.....and I have some work to do there. The velocity was dropping over the day. I'd say my hammer spring tensioner has moved. I loctite'd the crapper out of it 2 days ago, but that doesn't look like it's done the job. I was shooting tethered, so it wasn't cylinder pressure before you say that.
Here is the full - Nerd-out data from the day.
Sorted by MOA the results are
Observations.....
1. H&N Baracude 5.53 are the bolter of the pack. Very surprised there....
2. In my barrel, JSBs like it dirty. Best group from them was in a dirty barrel.
3. JSBs overall did better than the Baracuda
4. This is not a bad batch of pellets in my opinion.
Now, I need to decide what to do next. Practice, Practice, Practice.....
Trent
I made it to the range and the conditions were perfect. Not a breath of wind, mild and a little humid. 50 Meters Outdoor Benchrest. FX Royale 300 .22. Bipod and rear sandbag.
I had my measured an weighed JSB 18.1 in a box and my H&N Baracuda also measured and weighed. Here are the full results.
Most targets were 6 shots. Some were 5 where I only had 5 pellets in that sorted set.
I had 3 sub MOA groups
Target #7
H&N Baracuda Accurate Heavy 5.53 head 20.9 Grain
Target 8
H&N Baracuda Accurate Heavy 5.53 head 20.9 Grain
Target #14
JSB 18.1 - 5.52 head and 18.2 gr - NOTE Dirty Barrels Last 6 shots of the day.
I used my Chrono to measure all my shots.....and I have some work to do there. The velocity was dropping over the day. I'd say my hammer spring tensioner has moved. I loctite'd the crapper out of it 2 days ago, but that doesn't look like it's done the job. I was shooting tethered, so it wasn't cylinder pressure before you say that.
Here is the full - Nerd-out data from the day.
Sorted by MOA the results are
Observations.....
1. H&N Baracude 5.53 are the bolter of the pack. Very surprised there....
2. In my barrel, JSBs like it dirty. Best group from them was in a dirty barrel.
3. JSBs overall did better than the Baracuda
4. This is not a bad batch of pellets in my opinion.
Now, I need to decide what to do next. Practice, Practice, Practice.....
Trent
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Trent, I would say overall there is nothing wrong with either your FX or the pellets and you have been busy to collect all that data, did you say you are an engineer? Is the measurements on the group sizes correct for 50m or are the moa sizes for the groups if at 100m, they look smaller than .8-,9,? Did you shoot these single round loading or from the magazine?
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Hi Strikey,
Yes, I am an engineer. I'd rather be out hunting, but getting access to properties is really hard around Sydney, so nerding out is all I have at the moment.
The Measurements are in mm so the smalles group is 12.257mm or about 1/2 and Inch. the inside of the 8 ring is 25mm just for scale. The measurements are via the OnTarget Program and nothing I have worked out, so apologies if they are wrong. I'm more of a milliradian person myself, but I remember people saying <1 MOA at any distance is the target to aim for (pardon he pun). With OnTarget, I have the target distance set at 50m and have set the scale off the 8 ring. It's roughly what I measure with my calipers.
All these were single loaded. I only use the mag when I need a second shot i.e. when hunting.
I'm happy with the progress. Thanks to yourself and yrraH and all the other great contributors.
Trent
Yes, I am an engineer. I'd rather be out hunting, but getting access to properties is really hard around Sydney, so nerding out is all I have at the moment.
The Measurements are in mm so the smalles group is 12.257mm or about 1/2 and Inch. the inside of the 8 ring is 25mm just for scale. The measurements are via the OnTarget Program and nothing I have worked out, so apologies if they are wrong. I'm more of a milliradian person myself, but I remember people saying <1 MOA at any distance is the target to aim for (pardon he pun). With OnTarget, I have the target distance set at 50m and have set the scale off the 8 ring. It's roughly what I measure with my calipers.
All these were single loaded. I only use the mag when I need a second shot i.e. when hunting.
I'm happy with the progress. Thanks to yourself and yrraH and all the other great contributors.
Trent
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Hi Guys,
That is some awesome work Trent and great shooting. I would agree with you guys that for your rifles this batch of JSB's is all good. But you might find the following targets quite interesting for these JSB's in my HW100.
All shots were single loaded and shot consecutively under the same conditions in the order that the targets are shown. Conditions were warm with very light but variable winds.
Pellets were straight from the tins unsorted but visually inspected for damage.
1st target Barracuda 21gr 5 shots 50yd
2nd target JSB 18.1gr 5 shots 50yd (These are the pellets that I haven't been happy with)
3rd target Cometa Exact Heavy 18.1gr 5 shots 50yd
4th target Barracuda 21gr 5 shots 100yd
Conclusions?
Is there anything wrong with this batch of JSB's - NO they just don't seem to group well in my HW100
Will I buy more of the JSB's - YES but hopefully the next batch I get will be just that little bit different so they will suit MY RIFLE.
Thanks heaps to everyone (especially all the guys in Australia) for their input and one day I wish I could shoot even half as good as Harry (or Trent or Strikey or Ted etc...)
Chris in Oz
That is some awesome work Trent and great shooting. I would agree with you guys that for your rifles this batch of JSB's is all good. But you might find the following targets quite interesting for these JSB's in my HW100.
All shots were single loaded and shot consecutively under the same conditions in the order that the targets are shown. Conditions were warm with very light but variable winds.
Pellets were straight from the tins unsorted but visually inspected for damage.
1st target Barracuda 21gr 5 shots 50yd
2nd target JSB 18.1gr 5 shots 50yd (These are the pellets that I haven't been happy with)
3rd target Cometa Exact Heavy 18.1gr 5 shots 50yd
4th target Barracuda 21gr 5 shots 100yd
Conclusions?
Is there anything wrong with this batch of JSB's - NO they just don't seem to group well in my HW100
Will I buy more of the JSB's - YES but hopefully the next batch I get will be just that little bit different so they will suit MY RIFLE.
Thanks heaps to everyone (especially all the guys in Australia) for their input and one day I wish I could shoot even half as good as Harry (or Trent or Strikey or Ted etc...)
Chris in Oz
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Hi Chris,
Have you sorted/graded the pellets. I found that made a big difference on all pellets. Unfortunately there is some money to be spent.
I got a pelletgage from the states (http://pelletgage.com/). It was ~$85 bucks, and also a really good set of digital scales form RS Components (the engineers best friend) for $150, these measure in grain to 2 decimal places.
I sorted in head size, then into weight. For some pellets, there are only 5-10 from a batch that al match, but with JSBs there were quite a few that were the same head size and weight. no washing, no lubing etc....
I also checked by regulator with a Chronometer to make sure all the pellets were about the same speed. Do you have a regulator fitted.
I guess it comes down to spending the time to chase the accuracy. I haven't tried any further than 50m as I don't have anywhere to shoot until I get to a property. That'll see where I'm at!!
Perhaps stop chasing accuracy with JSBs and keep using H&N or others. I also thought the Cometa pellets were JSB anyway? Not sure.
Trent
Have you sorted/graded the pellets. I found that made a big difference on all pellets. Unfortunately there is some money to be spent.
I got a pelletgage from the states (http://pelletgage.com/). It was ~$85 bucks, and also a really good set of digital scales form RS Components (the engineers best friend) for $150, these measure in grain to 2 decimal places.
I sorted in head size, then into weight. For some pellets, there are only 5-10 from a batch that al match, but with JSBs there were quite a few that were the same head size and weight. no washing, no lubing etc....
I also checked by regulator with a Chronometer to make sure all the pellets were about the same speed. Do you have a regulator fitted.
I guess it comes down to spending the time to chase the accuracy. I haven't tried any further than 50m as I don't have anywhere to shoot until I get to a property. That'll see where I'm at!!
Perhaps stop chasing accuracy with JSBs and keep using H&N or others. I also thought the Cometa pellets were JSB anyway? Not sure.
Trent
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