Have the springers changed in the past 20 years
- Thread starter airgunmike56
- Start date
The way they operate / compress air for the shot ... UNCHANGED
All the really innovative stuff is back 20-40+ years ago. Multi cock such as Wiscombes, Buffered and on sled FWB's, GISS action Dianas.
Sadly all are now gone from production
All the really innovative stuff is back 20-40+ years ago. Multi cock such as Wiscombes, Buffered and on sled FWB's, GISS action Dianas.
Sadly all are now gone from production
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My opinion, for what it's worth, my first air rifle at about nine yrs. old was a Daisy mod. 25, later in my teens it was replaced by a RWS .177 cal. springer, it wasn't much more accurate than that BB gun, in my late teens I bought a 5mm Sheridan Blue Streak, that was a great improvement over the previous two.
For the next 55 yrs. it was powder burners that held my interest, then about five years ago ammo disappeared from the shelves and what could be found was unaffordable, then I rediscovered air guns, to date I have a dozen or so air rifles, they vary in price from budget friendly under $100.00 ~ $600.00, the higher the price (spelled quality) the less tinkering they need, the lower the price the more tinkering they require.
All my air rifles have fine wooden stocks and finely finished blued metal, all are fine shooters and exceptionally reliable, so, as whether air guns have gotten better over the years, people can complain about the loss of quality and workmanship of todays modern production air guns, but I'm not one of them, maybe I've been very fortunate, but all of my air rifles from the least expensive to the most expensive have been exceptional, yes, some are more accurate, some easier to shoot, some are heavier than others, each is an individual, and I think that's part of their allure.
So, given what I grew up with in the '40's and '50's, todays air guns and pellet quality are a true testament to today's air gun technology.
For the next 55 yrs. it was powder burners that held my interest, then about five years ago ammo disappeared from the shelves and what could be found was unaffordable, then I rediscovered air guns, to date I have a dozen or so air rifles, they vary in price from budget friendly under $100.00 ~ $600.00, the higher the price (spelled quality) the less tinkering they need, the lower the price the more tinkering they require.
All my air rifles have fine wooden stocks and finely finished blued metal, all are fine shooters and exceptionally reliable, so, as whether air guns have gotten better over the years, people can complain about the loss of quality and workmanship of todays modern production air guns, but I'm not one of them, maybe I've been very fortunate, but all of my air rifles from the least expensive to the most expensive have been exceptional, yes, some are more accurate, some easier to shoot, some are heavier than others, each is an individual, and I think that's part of their allure.
So, given what I grew up with in the '40's and '50's, todays air guns and pellet quality are a true testament to today's air gun technology.
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The question was, though: have the springers changed in the past 20 years? That's post-911 as the starting point, not the 40's, 50's, or even the '80's.
I have a bunch of older airguns, the oldest from around 1920, several from the 1960's and the rest from the 1980's on up, with many recent guns, as well.
The really old guns have great workmanship in some ways and a distinct lack of sophistication in others. Things like well-fitting mainspring guides didn't really exist, inefficencies like the loading tap were the norm etc. There's a huge distance from there into the 1980's and 1990's, when a massive amount of hands-on experimental work coupled with modern seal and guide materials, not to mention improvements in pellets, mounts and scopes, had improved the spring gun to the present level. In comparison, very little has happened since.
For instance, many think the Venom Arms heavily tuned Weihrauchs have never been surpassed, and that was 30, 40 years ago.
I have a bunch of older airguns, the oldest from around 1920, several from the 1960's and the rest from the 1980's on up, with many recent guns, as well.
The really old guns have great workmanship in some ways and a distinct lack of sophistication in others. Things like well-fitting mainspring guides didn't really exist, inefficencies like the loading tap were the norm etc. There's a huge distance from there into the 1980's and 1990's, when a massive amount of hands-on experimental work coupled with modern seal and guide materials, not to mention improvements in pellets, mounts and scopes, had improved the spring gun to the present level. In comparison, very little has happened since.
For instance, many think the Venom Arms heavily tuned Weihrauchs have never been surpassed, and that was 30, 40 years ago.
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Like I said the Tombstone breech of the Sig AND pressing and fitting each barrel into it and then drilling the breech pin, as basically a custom fit for each gun, was a GIGANTIC deal! None of the European guns did that, that I know of. All I heard from AA, HW, and FWB were crickets about that. Of course, again, like I said above, they screwed themselves using a POS trigger compared to any of the much older designed euroguns. That whole bit of engineering with the barrel pivot and breech of the Sig was the best, for a break barrel ever, that was a mass produced gun. What was done better? I seriously have not heard of it.
Edit: I said "tombstone" breech alot and it's "keystone."
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"POS trigger" seems pretty harsh. Its no Rekord but I'm finding the ASP trigger to be pretty darn good for what it is. It's breaking at 1lb 6-10oz for me which is far from terrible. I haven't shot a gas ram gun to date with a trigger that was much better.
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NOPE! I stand by it 100%! When I heard how these guns were being put together, I was blown away that anyone researched and put in the time on coming up with, not a better way, of making a break barrel, but a superior way, and then put in a plastic trigger system designed for lawyers. It basically can't be turned down under a pound. I know the euro guns can, with their old trigger designs, made of steel. Why improve one part of a gun and go, literally backwards, on another part of it? I really wanted to get one before I found out about the trigger. I wanted to see the trigger group match the excellence of what already existed, not to be less, and "pretty darn good for what it is." AEAC did a review on a AA ProSport that came with an 11.6oz trigger, -THAT is the goal post Sig should have been kicking for, since they were already designing and doing things from scratch.
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So you've never actually shot the ASP but are making assumptions about the trigger because you've done a bit of light reading? Your loss man.
Its a gas ram gun. The sear catches on the side of the piston vs on a rod like the high end coil spring guns do. Even Weihrauch couldn't manage a much better trigger for that system with the Elite they have in the HW90 (that costs $200 more). Compare apples to apples! Don't shame a $400 gun because it doesn't meet the standards of a $1000 match ready gun.
As far as being plastic goes, who cares? Not all "plastics" are bad. Metal would have been a nice touch but when you're marketing a gun for $350-$425 with a scope and built in the good ol' US of A some costs are going to need to be cut somewhere. They did a nice job for what it is.
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I am not shaming a $400 gun. I have stated now 4 times that I think it could have been the absolute best of the bunch, and why. Before I buy something and try it I have to be on board that it is what I want. It's called doing your homework. I wanted a Sig ASP that had a trigger that was hardened steel because that is what I know and I know they last. I have nothing against plastic, but if you're going to use it, you had better make the case that it was the superior choice. Sig did not. Since I am on that topic, here is the other things that probably led to people not buying it, and it's demise: the non-removable big can on the end of the barrel; no option for just a nice walnut stock. If the plastic trigger was for cost saving and not just because they actually thought it to be the best way to do it, I wish that they had just saved the money on the whole suppressor thing. The tactical designed stock is cool (I liked it) to many, but many like classic walnut stock too. Now, for the biggie, price. Why did that ever matter? Seriously, Sig has a reputation for very expensive, very good guns, that people still find the money to buy. The ASP should have had the price point befitting it's place in the market, which should have been the top-level. Did you see that AA just put out models of their guns costing $1500, and they're still selling them. Nobody, that spends the money on airguns like we do around here, was looking for a bargain gun, quite the opposite. Most are looking for an heirloom quality machine. They should have just charged what it cost to make the gun after they designed the best they could, like they do for their firearms. Not try to meet price point. Their P-series handguns cost twice the price of their competition and sold well, why didn't they think that way for airguns? I don't know, but what I do know is that the ASP didn't in the end make it by my homework phase. I am happy for you that you like yours and I do think that it is a great gun and good deal. Considering all the work they put into it, I think Sig was crazy to discontinue the whole thing and not come at the market from a different angle, with more options. That's a lot of very good work to flush down the toilet, and it's a shame.
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I'm not disagreeing with any of that really. My disagreement is based on you calling it a POS trigger. It's relatively light, clean, and very consistent when adjusted. Not every trigger has to be a match grade trigger to be considered good. I would imagine they lawyer proofed the trigger based on the expected users of the gun. Probably for the same reason Hatsan lawyer proofs their Quattro.
As far as meeting the price point goes, what choice did Sig really have? The market for expensive magnum springers is small and already has some decent competition by names that are significantly better known than Sig is in this game. Your average magnum springer buyer is kids in their teens and early 20s. $350 is already pushing it for most young kids. The market for their pistols is much larger in comparison.
As a final thought... why did they weld the moderator? Because legally speaking the alphabet bois say it can't be removable. Sig isn't exactly in a good position to play games with their biggest haters.
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Watch thearmedscholar channel on utoob, the alphabit boys(good one!) have been getting schooled quite a bit this year (and many states) on what is legal and what they can do, by the Supreme Court, and they are not doing so well. Good for us. I respectfully disagree, truly, on the price point thing. I have read time and again that when you charge more for something it gives it a higher perceived value (whether it's true or not) than trying to go low and grabbing a market that didn't want to spend much in the first place, and more money is made. Sig has mega govt contracts, with all the three letter agencies and military, they'll be fine.
P.S. I'm sorry if I offended for the POS description, you are correct that it's unfair, never having shot it, and for that I do apologize.. I should have said, the bad decision to use plastic in the first place, in the trigger group. I just really believe that.
P.S. I'm sorry if I offended for the POS description, you are correct that it's unfair, never having shot it, and for that I do apologize.. I should have said, the bad decision to use plastic in the first place, in the trigger group. I just really believe that.
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The higher perceived value absolutely is true! I've skipped on quite a few things in life because they seemed to cheap to be any good. One day I'll learn my lesson (I hope)
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If China could build my 124 as well as Germany, I would be looking hard at one, LOL. That being, I like my $200 PCP Chinese rifle but NEVER had to pump my "rat smacker" FWB 124 with original Beeman SS2 scope. All for $280 at the time..can't find FWB receipt.
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