Hades Vs. The Dome

[crowski]

I wanted to compare the JSB 10.34 VS. Hades. All shots are 25 yds. and each target is 10 shots. Couldn’t get my crony to pick up the .177 rounds.
The first rounds Hades 

 The second round with JSB 10.34. 

 I thought maybe the Hades didn’t get a fair shake, go again, All shots with HW98, one of my favourite to shoot 

 rifles. Next let’s be fair 10.34 

 Again the dome wins, not surprising. Maybe I was off, third roundwith Hades. 

 Last with dome. Going for #8.

 I personally thought the Hades would have performed a little better. Still a fantastic round. I’ll likely try this with .22. cal. My thumb nail is a little bigger than a dime. Crow 

 

[dizzums]

domes always win seems like in my guns to .. only reason id shoot anything else is if its cheaper ..

 

[TMH]

While most of my guns will shoot the domes a little (sometimes a lot) better, some of my guns (or their specific tune) will shoot both with equal accuracy. Fewer guns even shoot the Hades more accurately (which is a bummer when just target shooting as they are more expensive).

But I almost always shoot the Hades specifically for hunting (pesting) applications, where bullseye level target accuracy is not quite as necessary. And their 'lights out' difference in hitting power is more important.

But I am talking from my PCP experience, where it is so much easier to fine tune for a specific pellet as compared to your HW98.

 

[elh0102]

I killed a few squirrels with the .22 Hades, and I really could not see any difference in effectiveness. Since the standard dome pellet shoots a bit better in my rifles, I haven't used the Hades any more. 

 

[silvershooter589]

I've shot Hades in .22 .25 and .30 and they aren't as accurate as JSB Domes in any gun I've tried

Compared to other "hunting pellets", they do reasonably well

 

[crowski]

Well I didn’t get much work done today. I got my .22 HW98 out to 

 compare. First Hades.

This next is with a Dome. Again 25 yds. 

Hades 

 is tightening up. Pulled a few.

15.89 Dome 

 

Third round with Hades. All

 shots were consecutive.

Last round Dome. 

 Seems to be a little closer with the .22 for me. I’m going to grab a gel block next time in town and compare the two. Crow 

 

[corny]

Biggest issue I have with hades is destabilization in flight. Stretch the .22 hades out to 75-90y

Compared the 18’s the just don’t hold up.

 

[JungleShooter]

I’m going to grab a gel block next time in town and compare the two. Crow

Crow,

I really hope you do that ballistic gel testing!! 



There have been so many deficient tests that make whatever hollow point (=HP) they chose for testing perform pancake like expansion feats and moon crater-wide "entry wounds" and "deep penetration" — but the hunting reality is that: 

What a hunter wants from a HP is expansion in the quarry — in order to make a bigger hole = more damage = more blood loss = quicker death: It usually is not a concern to get deep penetration when chosing a HP (for that we have domes)....

Our typical impact velocity at typical ranges is at most 800fps and more often 650fps — not 999fps or some cuadrouple digit velocity — and therefore the HP does not expand as much in real life than in those tests....

The flesh of our typical quarry (just like 10% ballistic gel) is much less dense than clay, playdough, or water at high velocities — and therefore does not make the HP expand as much....



All that said, I hope your tests will show us at what impact velocities the Hades expands how much in artificial flesh (10% ballistics gel).



As an example I'll attach below a test that is simply an excellent test — extremely helpful for choosing your power setting and maximum range for this particular HP pellet.



Matthias

 

[crowski]

Corny I get your point. Even with the springers at 25yds. I’m seeing a difference, it would be huge at 75 yds. Crow 

Matthias thanks for info. I’m heading in town within the hour for gel.

I don’t think I can provide you with destruction of pellet, because all my rifles are springers except one, a Benjamin Discovery. I will knock the dust off it. When I put it away it was throwing the rounds just under 1000 fps, .22 cal. I’m curious if the Hades tears through soft tissue easier than the Dome at springer speeds. Crow 

 

[JungleShooter]

Crow,

that's great!

I think the impact velocities where significant expansion starts to occur are between 750fps and 850fps.



So, if you can chrony your Discovery's muzzle velocity, and then place the gel at appropriate ranges to achieve those slower impact velocities — that would be awesome.



Just running the numbers in ChairGun (BC = 0.022, MV = 980fps) I'd try the following ranges:

39y — for 750fps impact velocity (=IV)

29y — for 800fps IV

19y — for 850fps IV



Matthias

 

[crowski]

This is pretty cool. I got the Gel block. They are not cheep. The one I wanted was $250. + .13, a rectangular block. I got one the shape of a full size rabbit. I also got a mood with it I can melt this down and get my block. Looks like rabbit season to me. I couldn’t wait to try, six shots while BBQing. It was difficult to get a decent photo. 

 I was caught totally off guard. I expected the opposite. 
The bottom 2 shots HW98 .177 JSB Dome 10.34.

‘Next shot Dome HW50 .22 JSB Dome 15.89

Third row, 2 side by side HW98 .177 Hades 10.34

Top round HW50 .22 Hades 15.89

I thought for sure the Hades would cut it’s way quicker than the Dome. I would think larger surface area more friction. 
No or minimal distortion in pellets at these speeds. Crow 

 

[bunkeru2k]

I’m going to grab a gel block next time in town and compare the two. Crow

Crow,

I really hope you do that ballistic gel testing!! 



There have been so many deficient tests that make whatever hollow point (=HP) they chose for testing perform pancake like expansion feats and moon crater-wide "entry wounds" and "deep penetration" — but the hunting reality is that: 

What a hunter wants from a HP is expansion in the quarry — in order to make a bigger hole = more damage = more blood loss = quicker death: It usually is not a concern to get deep penetration when chosing a HP (for that we have domes)....

Our typical impact velocity at typical ranges is at most 800fps and more often 650fps — not 999fps or some cuadrouple digit velocity — and therefore the HP does not expand as much in real life than in those tests....

The flesh of our typical quarry (just like 10% ballistic gel) is much less dense than clay, playdough, or water at high velocities — and therefore does not make the HP expand as much....



All that said, I hope your tests will show us at what impact velocities the Hades expands how much in artificial flesh (10% ballistics gel).



As an example I'll attach below a test that is simply an excellent test — extremely helpful for choosing your power setting and maximum range for this particular HP pellet.



Matthias

Hopefully some squirrels present themselves at my feeder soon as I now have a second gun setup for the Hades at 905 FPS. As for expansion on small game, I have been using slugs from the Maverick and fairly positive that no pellet can expand like those do. I have pics of the recovered slugs and measured expansion to .347. It seems to far that the Hades does not like higher speeds that would give it anything even in the same ballpark of opening up. Pretty sure that Ted Biers had something in one of his videos showing the expansion of the Hades .22 in a similar picture to what you posted above though. If I recall he did not push them past 900 in that test.

 

[JungleShooter]

Pretty sure that Ted Biers had something in one of his videos showing the expansion of the Hades .22 in a similar picture to what you posted above though.

JH,

yeah, I saw that "test" — but like so many others, it used WATER as ballistic medium.

And hitting water at those velocities — it's like hitting a concrete wall.... — meaning, the expansion results in water are too optimistic....



Matthias

 

[bunkeru2k]

The hard part is finding small game that the pellet does not penetrate. Even if you try to capture it after pass thru, that could taint the test as the medium used to stop it could cause expansion. I think what may need to happen is to stack about 10 birds in a row and shoot into them and capture it from whichever one it stops in.

 

[JungleShooter]

JH,

I guess my interest is to know how much a hollow point (HP) expands in my quarry — not how much it could theoretically expand. If the quarry is only about 3" thick, I would cut my ballistic material down* to 3" (be that material a block of ballistic gel, or a row of corpses).



Because, say the HP only expands by 15% in the first 3" of travel through the ballistic material — and expands an additional whopping 30% as it travels another 4" through the material.... — well, my quarry will only benefit from the lousy 15% HP expansion — unless I limit myself to shooting only doubles, that is...! In that case, the second bird will get hit with a greatly expanded HP (15%+30%=45%).



The pellet catcher methods work quite well, it seems: after the ballistic gel or the cadaver, slow down the projectile with loosely bunched up plastic bags, or a loose bunch of old clothes and/or towels. Careful that is is enough to slow down the projectile sufficiently so it doesn't bonk against the backwall of your box or your backstop....

You could shoot a pellet directly into the pellet catcher and examine it for damage/ expansion — then you know for sure that it works.

Matthias



* I think I learned that from Shooter1721 (I think he was the one that also built excellent pellet traps to study expansion).

 

[bunkeru2k]

I will see what I can do with that. I have been stacking bodies up here of late and these types of data points always interest me. Some things you probably have already experienced (as I am pretty sure you have been at the airguns longer than I have) is that my own hunch says that pellets are harder material than most of the slugs being put out now. In my yard I shoot 35 yards, so most of my shots are still going to be maintaining a high percentage of the muzzle velocity. A 25.5 grn Zan slug began expanding instantly on a squirrel that I git in the back....so much so that I could put my pink finger into the entrance. that particular slug was one I recovered and while it was not the perfect water jug mushroom, it was not far off. I have also seen the exits on many birds shot with those and those lead me to believe that those are indeed expanding a bit even in that small and soft of a target. The hades is definitely not that explosive at 900 fps....but a solid body shot has ended every single thing that flies and also a rabbit through the shoulder that never even twitched.

 

[JungleShooter]

Yeah, the lead hardness is definitely important for expansion.

I just got a set of pencils of graded hardness delivered to Peru to measure lead hardness, though there is some data of that out there already.

H&N confirmed that their slugs are made from softer lead than their pellets.



I'll attach a hollow point pellet table that compares various factors of each pellet that help or hinder damage to the quarry.

Eventually, I'd like to provide the minimum impact velocities for each at which significat expansion can still be expected.

Matthias



Attachment:

Hollow Point Specs and Performance Chart

View attachment PELLETS. HP Pellet Specs Performance Chart .22cal. 158.1651185037.pdf

 

[igolfat8]

My buddy and I hunted pigeons on a large industrial dairy farm over a 3 year period we shot nearly 7000 birds. We started out using domes and every kill had a pass through. After some pass through roof damage with the domes we both started using Hades and my DreamPup was de-tuned to shoot .22s at 765. He used a P-rod but I am not sure of his velocity but I think it was in the mid to high 600s. We had to tune our guns down so we didn’t damage the roof. It was VERY rare to ever have the Hades pass through a pigeon when shot in the gullet or heart lung area. 

 

[JungleShooter]

Seven THOUSAND pigeons?!?

As in: 7, and then four zeros?!



OK, wait, give me a sec with my calculator: 7,000 / 3years / 2shooters = 

= 1,200 per year per shooter, or 100 per month, every month, for three long years....

What a carnage.  

What a devastation!


Bless your pure little hearts , you merciless KILLERS!!

You're my new heros!

Awesome!!

Matthias

 

[crowski]

Matthias my Discovery does not have sufficient air pressure, haven’t used 2 1/2 yrs. 
I’m curious about the penitration. I have a few same springers in 3 different cal. I’ve been hitting the gel with different guns. Really cool. Again totally surprised with HW80 and HW97 both .25. Slower delivery but deep penetration. 
Don’t like this rabbit shape, will be much better in block form. Crow

igolfat8 I wasn’t aware Hades wasn’t reliable after 50 yds. Doesn’t matter to me, their accuracy is “good enough for the girls I go out with”. They seem more effective on tree rats. Maybe.

7000 pigeons, I wanna be like you when I grow up. Crow