Hades misconception?

[paul.mcallister]

Hi, I’m using Hades in my .22 cal. at about 850 FPS. Over the past 3 weeks I have shot about 20 squirrels in 20 to 50 yard range. I’m finding them very accurate but they nearly always pass through. Once in a while the pellet hits a bone and says there. So far I haven’t seen any evidence of mushrooming, aka. large exit wounds. I’m going to try H&N Hunter extreme next but to be honest I think it’s a tough design problem to get pellets to expand at sub sonic velocities and I’m not expecting any significant improvements.

 

[Elbowgrease]

Shooting them in my Lelya .22 at 946fps. Never have checked to see if there is any passing through pigeons of other pest birds. Im sure that at longer distances where the fps is reduced there will be less chance of both expansion and pass through. They seem to be just as accurate as the 18 grain domed for the most part. They seem to drop pests just as easy as the domes also. Not sure if Ill buy more once I have gone through them. If they are not preforming any different then a domed jsb then why pay more I guess. The impact sound seems no different then a standard domed which has led me to think that the expansion just is not there. Unlike a Pollymag for example. Now that impact tells a different story. 

 

[bandg]

Shooting them in my Lelya .22 at 946fps. Never have checked to see if there is any passing through pigeons of other pest birds. Im sure that at longer distances where the fps is reduced there will be less chance of both expansion and pass through. They seem to be just as accurate as the 18 grain domed for the most part. They seem to drop pests just as easy as the domes also. Not sure if Ill buy more once I have gone through them. If they are not preforming any different then a domed jsb then why pay more I guess. The impact sound seems no different then a standard domed which has led me to think that the expansion just is not there. Unlike a Pollymag for example. Now that impact tells a different story.

THAT is logical. Why pay more if the accuracy is just comparable and the terminal performance isn't higher. The mixed reports of terminal performance seem to be what is in question. Might get a definitive answer at some point. Might not. Might depend on the individual.

 

[yalel]

I have put my Lelya / hades .25 combo to the test to see for myself what is happening in my specific case when I drive the hades .25 through a thick 10 inch candle with hard plasric cover in front of a folded towell. The hades pellet shot with 855 ft/sec at 50 yards. They went trough the wax of the candle and d the hard plastic cover into the towel hence I could recover the pellet well. ( went through 2 layers of folded towel)
I know this is not by any means scientific but it was as close as I could prepare a test set up that could resemble an animal hit to my imagination. ( provided no bones were hit) 

I was rather dissapointed in the opening effect ( one pellet did rather close than open) of the hades in my specific test and as a result I will switch back to the normal Kings with better BC as the mushrooming in my set up obviously does not play a siginificant part in hunting efficiency other than being less exact in placement ( trhough my barrel and with my settings) and lower BC.

i am sure that others with different velocities and circumstances / test methods will have different result but for me in my specific set up I do not see any advantage in using the hades in .25. I read somewhere that in .22 the pellet opens up more easy and consequent. As do the FX hybrid slugs. My idea at the moment from reading and watching many posts on the internet is that results of specific ammunition in .22 cannot just be transferred to other calibers . Especially as the mass of material increases with the bigger calibers the results in terms of mushrooming and fragmentation cannot be extrapolated as is done now on the hades and some ( semi) slugs. Speed is a very deciding factor in airgunning I am afraid and I feel more and more that .22 is a very nice compromise in modern airgunning whilst for heavier kalibers some new kids on the block are not well enough thought out....

 

[qball]

Think you are right about the 25 Hades has too much material/lead for them to expand properly, I don’t even see expansion when I shot hades directly into moist dirt. Needless to say I’ve given up on Hades and treat them like regular pellets and won’t replenish after I use them up, good thing they are accurate. 

 

[bandg]

Excellent post. Specific information about a pellet's performance in your situation. That should be helpful to people but I agree that different situations might produce different results. Only more such information, and probably actually only more individual testing will answer the question.

 

[yalel]

Yes I hope as well that more experiences will be posted. By the way the bottom one of the 3 hades pellets was not used but was photographed as the pristine reference . But I believe that was clear anyhow..

 

[qball]

Real world result, 680 FPS at 20 yards. Hit squirrel shoulder bones so there is slight deformation but no hint of expansion. 

 

[nervoustrig]

Since this topic has ongoing interest, I'll include some anecdotal pellet comparisons on live game (gray squirrels). The pellets here will be the new Spanish-made Daisy hollow points and of course the JSB Hades, both in .22 cal.

First a few comments about accuracy. Having seen nothing but miserable accuracy from Daisy pellets in the past, I went in with low expectations but their new hollow points were a pleasant surprise. Here's a couple of 30 yard groups...the white circle is the size of an aspirin:


By comparison, the Hades hold their accuracy at greater distances. For example here's my very first group at 43 yard from a pre-release DAR gen 2:


I had commented above that I was unimpressed with the Hades expansion. Here's a recovered pellet from that lengthwise vitals shot I referenced:


Here's a pic of a recovered Daisy from last weekend using the same shot placement and angle. The blue Sharpie explains the story:




Between these two, for sure I'd want the Hades if I were shooting 50 - 70 yards. But for 40 yards and in, the Daisies are pure poison. They're also substantally cheaper.

For that same 50 - 70 yards, the 15.9gr and 18.1gr domes are even better at a price that lies in between.

 

[bandg]

More useful information. I also have had little luck with Daisy pellets but since I do most air gun shooting inside 50 yards I may try the Daisy hollow points noted.

Either the Daisy pellets must be dramatically improved or the price too good to pass up. Seems they aren't available to order anywhere search returned.

 

[nervoustrig]

bandg, I ordered mine from Amazon
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002HSWR1I

Right now they're $10 / 500ct. They were cheaper a few weeks ago when I ordered but still a good value if they prove accurate for you. For what it's worth, the batch I received group well both from a choked LW barrel and from an unchoked barrel from the "$100 PCP" from Flying Dragon. Had they only done well from the LW barrel, I would not have been so impressed. I mean it's no magic wand but it's always good to see a pellet doing that well from a bargain basement gun.

The big question for me is whether they will be able to produce quality pellets over time. For example, every once in a while I'll stumble across a good batch of Crosman pellets but the odds haven't been good. I keep buying them because they are cheap and have some utility for tuning even if they don't group well.

 

[bandg]

Thanks for the link. I only have a couple of .22 guns. I searched .177 and none are in stock anywhere that came up. Quality over time is a good question, seems there has been an issue with that even with JSB.

 

[intenseaty22]

Thanks for the link. I only have a couple of .22 guns. I searched .177 and none are in stock anywhere that came up. Quality over time is a good question, seems there has been an issue with that even with JSB.

I’m hoping to have some .177s as soon as tomorrow. 

 

[bandg]

Thanks for the link. I only have a couple of .22 guns. I searched .177 and none are in stock anywhere that came up. Quality over time is a good question, seems there has been an issue with that even with JSB.

I’m hoping to have some .177s as soon as tomorrow.

Hope you'll report on performance. The price sure seems good.

 

[intenseaty22]

Here ya go. https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/hades-performance-repor-graphic-pics/Little kiss to the face with a .22 Hades out of the KGC.

 

[bandg]

That would do some damage. Velocity for that?

 

[intenseaty22]

That would do some damage. Velocity for that?

I linked the post for you above. It was going around 930fps. 

 

[bandg]

That would do some damage. Velocity for that?

I linked the post for you above. It was going around 930fps.

Thanks for that. I no longer hunt but some pesting is still done and all of this is interesting. As for those who above state that expansion of a pellet is not likely, you might want to look at this.

https://hardairmagazine.com/reviews/airgun-pellet-test-reviews/crosman-premier-hollow-point-7-9-grain-177-caliber-pellet-test-review/

 

[nervoustrig]

I’ll be, uh...blunt. That expansion by HAM test is bunk. Never have I seen a CPHP of either caliber from actual game look anything like that. Neither mine nor anyone else’s. If they hit bone, they will deform slightly. If they hit flesh only, you can almost reuse them.

 

[nervoustrig]

Intenseaty, I hope you have better luck with the .177 hollow points than I did. They grouped like hot garbage from every rifle I tried, even those whose barrels are generally not picky. A total 180 from the .22 version. Others on the forums have reported something similar.