Getting the flyers out of the red 🐺 coat

[Flintsack]

It’s been a process. I think I’ll share more about what I’ve tried on another post. And on this one just show you the results.

Without the carbon fiber sheath around the barrel, The handling dynamics during the firing cycle change dramatically. The rifle was easier to control. I was not sitting on it to get it to shoot well.

Inside of 75 yards I don’t think you’d see much of a difference. Everything is accentuated when you get to 100 and beyond. 


I’m just so happy I got the flyers to go away. The pellets are spinning much better with very little looping. I’m going to continue the cleaning with JB for a while, until it stops fowling. 


After I made the corrections. I shot an unbelievable 50 shot group. I was shooting fast. There were no big bad flyers. Then I shot an even better 40 shot group. But of course I had to try to get it to 50. Then I started shooting some groups. And a couple scores. The 10 shot group on the EBR target  looks fake. It’s going on the wall to motivate me.

The next thing I need to do is adjust the velocity. Would anyone be willing to rent me their programmer for a short while? I would be responsible for shipping both ways and replacing it if damaged.



I do not recommend removing your shroud until you’ve seen the process.


Here are the results:

 

[elh0102]

Barrels are different, guess we've all heard that before. I tried my Red Wolf without the shroud or suppressor, and other than adjusting the POI, could tell no difference. I could not shoot it with suppressor only, because my barrel is not threaded. The original barrel would not shoot, and AOA replaced it with a non-threaded one. The air stripper slides on and attaches with a grub screw. But it shoots great with shroud and suppressor. 

 

[ChrisUSA]

Flintsack,

Maybe I missed it,.. but what is the caliber? I have a .25 Limited Edition HP.

 

[Flintsack]

22 cal. 25 g redesign 

 

[30harry]

Can someone speculate as to why removing the shroud would make pellets spin better? I thought the spin/spiral situation was related to velocities and twist rate.

 

[elh0102]

Can someone speculate as to why removing the shroud would make pellets spin better? I thought the spin/spiral situation was related to velocities and twist rate.

Nothing whatever to do with it. I think the OP's statement about the pellet spin was in reference to the JB cleaning process. Which also would not affect spin rate, but it could certainly improve accuracy by reducing fouling.

 

[Flintsack]

I’m guessing I’ve watched a few hundred thousand pellets fly out of the end of rifle Bores, Usually with good glass, and usually at long range.

imo, spiraling can be caused by a dirty barrel, and is usually a sign of a dirty barrel. I also believe it can be caused by a rough barrel. When you break in a centerfire rifle, you clean after every shot for the first 10 shots. After doing that it will foul much less. It’s also usually more accurate.

so to your question what can cause spiraling? Or maybe a better question what can cause in accuracy? Certainly tension on the wrong portion of the barrel can cause inaccuracy and cause bad vibrations. I don’t think anyone will argue that. That’s why for years we have free floated barrels. Now we have free floated carbon fiber wrap barrels. What’s the point of free-floating a barrel you’re going to wrap with Carbon, and then attached it to the rest of the rifle? When the barrel heats up what happens? Maybe more importantly when the carbon fiber wrap heats up what happens? There are three different points where the barrel is being touched significantly by that carbon fiber wrap mechanism. Which does very little to quiet down the sound of the shot. Could potentially cause vibrations, and adds to the cost of building the rifle.

Yes rate of spin and twist on the barrel does impact how well the pellet flies. Usually heavier projectiles need a faster spin to stabilize. Yet, six different barrels with the exact same rate of twist will all have different accuracy levels. Some will foul quicker, why, I would assume because they’re rougher.

Some barrels are magic with some pellets. Others not at all. That’s what makes this game so interesting finding the right combination.

All of the spiral I was seeing was out past 75 yards. And it was really looping - 3 to 4 inches. Now it’s flying straight and true. except when the wind touches it of course.

mike

 

[30harry]

All of the spiral I was seeing was out past 75 yards. And it was really looping - 3 to 4 inches. Now it’s flying straight and true. except when the wind touches it of course.

mike

The spiraling you were seeing was being caused by the "shroud" and after you took it off pellets are no longer spiraling? Asking because I'm not real happy with the accuracy of mine. Now I have to do some shooting at 100+ yards and see if I can detect any spiraling.

 

[Flintsack]

I personally think the shroud Caused the intermittent flyers. I think the spiraling causes inaccuracy especially in the wind. 

The entire dynamics of the rifle changed significantly once I remove the shroud. It doesn’t recoil the same.


Breaking in the barrel, in my opinion is what helped the spiraling stop. I define breaking in the barrel is getting it really really clean, about every 500 shots, Until the fouling is greatly reduced.

 

[elh0102]

The Red Wolf shroud is attached to barrel collar at the breech end with two grub screws, and centered at the muzzle by the air stripper. It is a relatively benign arrangement, but obviously anything in contact with the barrel affects its harmonics. Given that this one appeared to affect accuracy, and a difference is felt in recoil, I have to wonder if there was a machining error somewhere that compromised the concentric assembly of the shroud on the barrel. 

 

[Flintsack]

In my opinion, every single rifle that is manufactured with a shroud, is affected by the shroud. I’m sure some shoot better.

I try a half a dozen different LDCs, on every rifle I buy. They all shoot differently, when you change LDCs point of impact changes in most cases, and accuracy level changes.

I will give you an example. On this rifle, my red wolf, I tried five different LDCs. It shot way better with one of them. And the point of impact moved Every time I tried a new LDC. That is what we think of as a benign item we hang on the end of our barrel. Yet it changes impact every time.

another better example. After I removed all the stuff from the barrel, I ran to a machinist. I brought two LDC’s with me. I had him change by hand the thread pitch on these LDCs to match the thread on the barrel. He told me he’s never seen a thread like that it’s a custom cut, designed to keep people from putting other things on it. That’s what he said.


Anyway, when I got back to my shooting range, I was obviously very excited to try these LDCs on my new Barenaked barrel. One of the two was horrible. Shots were spraying everywhere. It was worse than having a bare naked barrel. The other one wasn’t much better. I was very frustrated. After doing my regular day job work for a while, I had a thought. I get them once in a while. Anyway, I removed all of the guts from one of the LDCs. Making it just basically a hollow tube with a small hole on the end. At that point the rifle started piling shots on top of each other. It was more accurate then, than in any other state.

Anything that touches the barrel impacts accuracy and point of impact. Even your hand or your thumb.

I shot my first 10 shot half MOA group at 100 yards, years before Ted even tried. And Ted is one heck of a shot (someone posted his vid the other day). I believe I was the second person to ever post a 1/2 inch group from an air gun at 100 yards. The first person was a guy name Yrrah from down under. He did that about 10 years ago. We were shooting plain old pneumatic rifles. At about 30 foot pounds.

my ten cents

mike

 

[elh0102]

Agree 100%, and the manner and degree to which any variable may affect accuracy is totally barrel specific. Just have to test and see. 

 

[Flintsack]

Yrrah was shooting an old BSA, the kind you cock by pushing a button on the front. I can’t imagine it was more than about 2728 foot pounds. It had an absolutely gorgeous factory stock. All kinds of swirls, beautiful walnut. I guess they made it for him special. He was a accomplished international BR shooter. 

As a young man, he hunted rabbits for the government. This is down Under, Australia. Pellets were much less expensive than 22 rimfire. So he carried one of the original BSA Springer rifles you can see below. He shot that rifle his entire life. If I remember correctly he was shooting thousands of rabbits. He gave me a total from 2017 it was over 400. I’m not sure if he still received a bounty or not.

I have not heard back from Harry in almost a year now. He was the guy who made me believe I could shoot a 1 inch group at 100 yards with a pellet gun. I thought he was crazy. Then I did it.

In Australia any kind of device on the barrel is illegal and a felony. So all of his guns had nothing on the barrel. It’s just a note, it proves nothing. But it is interesting.

mike

 

[Flintsack]

Here is a picture of Yrrah with many of his best groups!

He was shooting that BSA at 200 and 300 yards, way way back in the day. I just did a Google https://www.airgunnation.com/members/yrrah/forums/replies/page/19/

 

[igolfat8]

I removed all of the guts from one of the LDCs. Making it just basically a hollow tube with a small hole on the end. At that point the rifle started piling shots on top of each other. It was more accurate then, than in any other state.

mike

Mike, Thanks for sharing your test results. Was the hollow tube vented in any way or did it just have an exit hole in the end of it? I used a FX LDC which was a hollow tube (non-vented) and noticed similar results of an increase in accuracy over a Donny FL with all of the internal stuffings.

 

[Flintsack]

Only the exit hole.

 

[30harry]

Mike, I also want to thank you for sharing your test results. This has been an extremely interesting thread. Here's hoping it will help me in my pursuit of RW accuracy at longer distances.

The other Harry