Gauntlet differently, strange results...Long ramble

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PumaCarl

PumaCarl

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Sep 17, 2017
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Every Gauntlet owner on this site knows and waits, with great anticipation, to read what's up with Hajimoto's mods as I do too. Great stuff! But while waiting initially for videos like Haji's to show up, and being new to PCP's I read a lot of things all over the place and decided to try something that I had not read about anywhere. It seemed foolish to even try it because the source material pertained to unregulated PCP's and supposedly wasn't applicable to regulated ones. Well, I was thinking reading the article that a Ninja regulator is a long ways different than a Huma so why not try it. The original article was at another site and some of the big names in the discussion were RSTERNE(of course!) and BillG, I think, and it had to do with hammer impact force and dwell times. (It is still there and an awesome read.) Some amazing science was going on and these wizards were predicting the speeds of their shot strings accurately. Anyway, there was a graph of the effect of adding velocity to the hammer, adding mass and velocity, adding just mass, etc., that caught my eye. It did so because I went with Tim Hill's Hammer Spring Guide Kit. In his kit the spring no longer goes inside the hammer but just barely does not butt up to it. That is not a typo, it applies no direct pressure to the hammer so that it works kind of like the Daystate slingshot system, super simplified of course. At least, that is how it seems to me and it makes it simple to explain, engineering aside.

My initial test using the Hill guide, regulator set to 1375psi, and a 22c.i. bottle with nothing done to any ports got me 106 shots regulated at 908fps using Crosman 14.3gr domed. Not bad for all the extra air I was using from upping the regulator, but things progressed. I next opened the barrel port up to 5/32" and gained 11fps with JSB 18.13gr, but only 3fps with the Crosman. I then upped the regulator to 1400psi even, but it had little effect. It was at this point that I thought about the force/dwell article, I realized that I now had a cavity inside the hammer that extended out to the face of the hammer guide. I could put a spring inside that cavity and spring that would not touch either surface but would engage only with the bolt cocked for increased hammer velocity. I tried that today and I got 922fps and 115 shots in regulation (which I don't understand how I got more shots, using more psi, with a bigger barrel port) using Crosman 14.3gr domed. JSB 18.13gr were at 846fps, an increase of 20fps. {on a side note, I did make a lead weight and got a correspondingly shorter spring to try, but haven't yet} The size spring that you need to try this with, is actually the same size has the original spring you replace with the Hill kit, but I wouldn't use the original because it is too stiff. I was worried it would break something and be too hard to cock. I went to a hardware store and got one that is probably only 25% of the originals power. One thing that Hill doesn't mention is that the de-gassing key doesn't seem to work with his kit. I unscrew the whole bottle/regulator setup about 3/16" to disengage the air, dry fire what air is left in the gun and finish taking off the bottle. If anyone reading this can de-gas your gun using the Hill kit please let me know and I will give it a try again.

Now here is where things get really weird. I decided to try my 13c.i. bottle with the same regulator minutes later and with the same 14.3gr pellets shot 50 regulated shots at 935fps"?" Why the speed jump? Why only 50 shots in regulation when the big tank got 115, or rather, how in the hell did I get 115? I am very precise with my fills, and I fill really slow so the bottle doesn't get very warm at all. Something doesn't seem to be adding up right and I have checked my guages. My shooting is rather old school too, no software, I write down every shot by hand so no glitches there. Who knows, but that got me thinking that I ought to try out my cheapo Chinese regulator that I got from Ali-Express for a whopping $11 bundled with my 22c.i. bottle. It came set worse than my Gauntlet's 1100psi, it was set at 950psi. I could only get it up to 1250psi and the internals were very different so I wasn't expecting much. Mixed results; first, the fill nipple was so long I had to remove my barrel shroud to put on the bottle, second, nipple and guage are at a right angle to each other, not 180, so I had to run w/o the fore-end, bare-bottled. That's the bad but, big deal, just cosmetic, how's it work? Better than it should for the price, or the Ninja should be doing a whole lot better! I only shot JSB's out of it, the 18.13gr, and it actually shot them 2fps (849fps) faster than the Ninja using 150psi less pressure. What kind of bothers me about that is that I had tried turning down the Ninja regulator to 1250psi and lost velocity big time. I am going to search Ali-Express again for a regulator set up like the Gaunlets. It seems worth persuing for $11 and the air savings. If anyone has found one please post the link.

On re-reading this I don't know if it is really helpful at all, except to help me collect my thoughts. Sorry if I wasted anyones time but we have to hit this stuff from different angles to find a soft spot, so to speak.

The day has left me with more questions than answers, but I was shooting all day so I'm ok with that!
 
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Thanks! I plan on trying weird stuff all summer, this thing is a science project to me.

BTW:I just checked back at hillairgun and he does say that I can de-gas the gun with the tool so I will check on that too. With no shaft behind the spring where the the tool port is, I found that it was like balancing on a beach ball the first time I tried it. I will practice on that too as I have already taken the bottle off 20 times and will probably do so 50 more times this spring.
 
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Couple of things

1) Are you using the same gauge to check fill pressure as you are to test regulator?
2) How long are you letting the reg on the tester to check pressure? Are you just applying pressure once? or are you bleeding quickly and then letting it settle a couple of times.
3) When shooting your string how are you telling that you are "still on regulation"?

My guess on the Chinese reg is that it is creeping after you set it, they have a bad habit of doing that. When you are testing it says 1250, but after a few moments it is 1400.
 
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BigTinBoat,

1) No, but I do check them against each other. It is all that I can do. I have one guage that is off in my redundant fill system and I disregard that one.

2) When initially setting them, off the gun, quite a while. I fill the bottle, let it cool, put on the checker, check, hit the slide check, check again, check again. I don't believe it's creeping, or it is the slowest creep on the planet.

3) I fill the bottle on the gun, with thermal regulation in mind, very slowly to just slightly over the 3000 mark and wait for it to settle. If it settles anywhere besides exact I dry fire or fill again. I then shoot over a chrony a long string of shots well past where I know my regulator is set. I have actually heard the regulator pop once, at least I think I did. Is that possible? I make a note of when I get to the pressure I set my regulator at and keep shooting for another 500psi. I look at the numbers in the string and when I see a number lower than any number in the string before I got to the regulator setting pressure, that is my regulated string, disregarding that first lower number. I am not sure if that is the right way to do it, but that is how I do it. At least I know how many shots will be accurate.

I need to get a new chronograph that does all the math, I know. It's on the list, after a laser rangefinder. My Ranging1000 doesn't cut it anymore.
 
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Not sure why you would have heard a regulator "pop". The regulator opens and closes on each shot. When the pressure inside tank gets below the set pressure the regulator opens, but does not close (since the pressure in the spring stack is greater then the available pressure in the tank) so once below the set pressure you would "theoretically" have less noise, if any noise could be heard.
Anyway I find the most accurate way to test is leave the fill assembly attached(with fill tank valve closed) while shooting. Then you can determine better what is happening. If you use the fill gauge to determine the regulator setting you will then be able to see exactly what happens to your shot string when you get to that pressure. The bigger gauge the better. Record the exact pressure after each shot.

I can't see how this can be done using the 1" gauge on the regulator itself. If the gauge is 1" diameter that means the outer circumference is 3.1415". Since the gauge is 6000psi over 120 degrees of the gauge, this 6000psi is spread over an area of 1.050566". If we then take 26.66666% of this total (Your psi used of 1600 is 26.6% of the 6000psi total) we get a total movement of .27924" over your entire shot string. This means that the end of the gauge needle moves .0174527" for each 100psi of pressure drop. Not sure how anyone could "see" this minute of a difference.
 
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Uh, I can't ... that is why I shoot 500psi below where my regulator is set at and then look at the numbers that the chrono gave me in the string of shots. An accurate deduction can be made. I may not be able to tell the exact actual pressures but I can can tell very accurately what the fps are doing. It is empirical, observed numbers. Not as sexy as a lot of lab equipment but the best that I can do.
 
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"PumaCarl"Uh, I can't ... that is why I shoot 500psi below where my regulator is set at and then look at the numbers that the chrono gave me in the string of shots. An accurate deduction can be made. I may not be able to tell the exact actual pressures but I can can tell very accurately what the fps are doing. It is empirical, observed numbers. Not as sexy as a lot of lab equipment but the best that I can do.
Click to expand...
Well that's why you are getting the differences you are getting. Depending on where you are tuned on your "curve" will determine the # of shots you will get, within a certain spread, after you are "off regulation". Due to the fact that the 22cuin bottle has a lot more available "unregulated" air, if you are tuned right on the edge of the knee you will see many more shots that are "off regulation" but appear to be happening while "regulated" due to the very low ES. This will make the 22cuin bottle look like it is more efficient in air usage.

Why is it that you can't stay attached to the fill source?
 
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That makes good sense, thanks BTB! I should have thought that through myself, I guess. The perils of posting to quickly.

Honestly, I could actually connect to my source, it would just be a pain at the moment. I will try that soon though.

What I did try today was adding mass to the hammer, 168gr., along with a spring to keep the overall length under 2.3" and the speed was not to be found that way. Slightly slower by a few fps so not as effective as just increasing velocity, with the springs that I had anyway. Just like what the article predicted. So, while I was at it I also tried just mass with no spring, and like predicted my fps dropped by over 100fps. Perhaps I am also physically deficient because I still can't make the de-gassing tool work with Hill kit, idk.

I only throw this info out there so that people try different things, not to contribute to some grand unified theory of everything. That would actually make everything boringly predictable. I do think it would be very cool too but I know the math won't come from me, so I am going with the try everything route. Plus it saves people from making the same mistakes or wasting time.
 
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Update:
I re-drilled the barrel port to .177", drilled the breech port to .187"

New numbers with: 13c.i. tank and Ninja regulator set to 1400psi, Hill Spring Guide kit (with second spring inside hammer and Hill spring)
H&N BM 21.14gr 790fps 29fpe
JSB 18.13gr 853fps 29fpe
CrPr 14.3gr 936fps 28fpe

It doesn't look like I am going to get 30fpe with my porting the breech but I did get 58 (8 more) good shots this time and a slight increase in energy from the heavier pellets.

There is only so much that can be done with this gun and I believe that I am at my comfort level and don't want to go any further. It is amazing, when you tear it down, how thin the tubes are, and just two screws to hold the breech to the air tube and the minimal design all-around. Engineering right at the edge of a price point. To do what it does, for how it is built, Bravo Umarex, Bravo. Add on to that the ability to really tweak it to your own needs and it still, to me, is the best of the sub-$300 guns as far as value is concerned. I have taken my Gauntlet completely down four times. I mean right down, scope, breech, air tube, barrel off, everything; and put it all back together and the gun had the same zero once and within an inch another time. Pretty cool! I have lost count of the partial breakdowns that I have done and the gun does an admirable job of holding zero.

The Gamo Urban is always going to have a low shot count and the magazines are more expensive than they should be, but if you want to buy a gun and not touch it, or use it in multiple roles that gun is probably better, for most, because of its ergonomics. Short time in the sun though because the Hatsan Flash is probably a better option now, especially if you like to buy a lot of extra magazines. I am only relating what I have seen on trusted reviews on these guns but my point is, the Gauntlet is still a good choice, for its versatility alone. I don't regret cutting my teeth on this PCP, and learning a lot about every aspect of the sport. It does everything very well with out being the best at anything although some have gotten some outstanding accuracy out of it too. I got the Gauntlet because I knew that I had to jump in somewhere and wasn't sure what I would end up liking and the Gauntlet was, and is, the most workable for the price point.

What I have learned, so far, is that weight and size matters more than I thought. The Gauntlet with the 22c.i. bottle on, gets heavy. When you shoot a couple hundred rounds standing, (I mostly shoot standing unsupported) really heavy. I won't be using the big bottle anywhere but long seated plinking sessions or the range on a rest. Swing weight is noticably faster with the smaller bottle too. I am now of the thought that unless the bottle is carbon fiber, or the gun is a bullpup, I don't want a bottle gun. I think the biggest design mistake on the Gauntlet was the foregrip shroud. It isn't anything but a pain. They should have just extended out under the bottle with a little shelf for a rail or swivel stud. No need for that cage nonsense at all. The gun is really long and you have to think of it more as a shotgun than a rifle when you are out with it or you will hit the barrel on everything. I sling all of my guns barrel down on my left shoulder so the sling studs work for me and I am pretty sure that is how they are designed to be used. Unless, of course, you are trying to get a laugh on a video of how pointless it is to try the other way.

Not directly Gauntlet related, but another part of my learning curve, is the air supply. I have to credit Air Velocity Sport on youtube here, for his videos of the Yong Heng and Ninja regulators, which actually finally got me to make the jump to PCP. I am very thankful to the community and anybody ( especially Hajimoto) that spends the time to make instructional videos. Well done people! I did get all the "P" stuff that I needed; compressor, tank, air dryer, hoses, guages, regulator checkers...and it is a good thing that I did because all of my testing took a serious amount of air.

With all this being said, I would have to say that for me, personally I would not recommend now, what I did. I was really looking to get into PCP for longer shooting ranges while hunting. I was initially turned off by the higher price of the .25 caliber pellets and the extra air they required and figured the .22 was ubiquitous, cheaper and powerful enough. Stupid. I let things that I actually didn't care about impact my decision. I was looking for more value than was actually valuable to me. What I would do now, having paid the price for the knowledge I got, is spend a whole lot less, tweak less, shoot/hunt more. Members of my family are starting to get interested in what I am doing and I am recommending to them to buy a handpump and a Hatsan Flash and start shooting. If I had done that I don't think I would have done much more, to be honest. But I didn't, and now for myself, I have learned that what I am really interested in is an EdGun Leishy in .25 caliber with a 350mm barrel. Small, rugged, powerful, simple, yeah it is expensive but worth it in the long run I hope. Long road to figure that out.

Good luck with your Gauntlets everybody!

P.S. Almost forgot to mention; Tim Hill sent me a video and I finally figured out how to de-gas the gun with his hmmer guide. It is the same really, just a little trickier.
 
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