Game farms...Why I get heart burn with them!
- Thread starter Blackpaw
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You're a fan then of 'drive thru' canned hunting?
https://www.ronspomeroutdoors.com/blog/dont-fence-me-in-game-farms-pro-and-con/
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I'm not defending or attacking game ranches. A game ranch is not my kind of hunting, but if others want it to be their kind of hunting, then more power to them. Again it takes nothing from me.
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Might not take anything from you; but, It takes something from the rest of us.
Quote:
Some folks suggest a Mind Your Own Business approach to game farms. You hunt your way, I'll hunt mine. But this ignores society's penchant for passing laws (some by citizen initiative) telling other people what to do. Anti-hunting organizations hope to eventually have all forms of hunting outlawed. Do game farms give them ammunition to use against us? What do you think?
Is there room for game farms? Will private property soon be the only property on which we can hunt? Will animal rights activists get all public land closed to hunting?
If it's wrong to hunt four square miles of dense habitat behind a fence, then is it wrong to hunt on a four-square mile island? If it's wrong to hunt over a pile of corn, is it wrong to wait beside a half-acre of turnips? A 40-acre corn field?
Most importantly, is there any way for the hunting community to stop infighting and come together on this and similar ethical issues so we can concentrate on the more serious need to enhance habitat, manage wildlife, educate the ignorant general public and prevent more anti-hunting legislation?
https://www.ronspomeroutdoors.com/blog/dont-fence-me-in-game-farms-pro-and-con/
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Know when to hold 'em. Know when to fold 'em. Know when to walk away.
You aren't entitled to your opinion here. Hasn't he made that clear yet?
For what it's worth you are exactly right. It takes nothing from anyone else. Especially world class HOSP killers. Their trophies are the stuff of legend.
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And that is the whole point....they know the boundaries on that hunting ranch so hardly any tracking/stalking...just run the animal to a fence...
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Ok, there are several things which are being missed here. First I can't say this person is demanding that anyone "look at me". Clearly this is a case of a vendor creating an association for marketing purposes. That's the nature of business in most of the world, free or otherwise. Marketeers market things. So someone may be saying, "look at her" but assuming that she wants the attention may or may not be fair. Further it doesn't really matter. Apparently these are not B&C or P&Y records. Apparently they don't qualify for entry to even compete in those sporting organizations. So what's the beef? Someone says, "Oh lookie here is a world record." So what? Ok, it's a world record in the book they are writing, by the rules they are using.
Nobody is required to approve. Nobody is required to salute that flag. You don't like it, ok. I wonder if the lady in the farm hunt is as impressed with you haters as you are with her? Probably not, but OK, you don't approve.
The argument that she is somehow taking something away from "real" hunters is ludicrous on it's face. She isn't getting an award from the organizations that "real" hunters petition. She isn't taking an animal that "real" hunters would be hunting. I mean what is she taking? Your sacred honor as a "real" hunter? Nope.
Let's talk about what a "real" hunter actually is instead. Is a real hunter someone who can afford to hire a guide to take him to the field, scout the game for him, stalk the game with him, and hand him his rifle just before he takes the 500 yard shot? Is that what a real hunter is? Because if it is I personally am unimpressed. I thought a real hunter was the guide. He is the guy who knows which animal he is hunting, knows where it is from his observations of it, knows how old it is, knows where it will be at a certain time of the day/year. He is the guy who knows what it eats, where it beds down and how many animals are in it's herd, flock, pack, or den. So if we take my definition of "real" hunter nine out of ten of those B&C and P&Y "world records" BELONG TO THE GUIDES, not the shooter. Any idiot can learn to pull a trigger. That doesn't make him a "real" hunter.
Frankly I think some folks have a need to look down their noses at other people. Those folks also appear to form flocks, or packs, and demand other's see the world through their own "real" hunter eyes.
If you have never had a deer jump over you when you were in your sleeping bag, you may not be a real hunter. If you have never gotten on your hands and knees and spent an afternoon tracking a wounded animal by wet leaves because it was not leaving a blood trail, you may not be a real hunter. If you have never awakened with a "possum" sleeping on your face in New Zealand and laid there waiting for a few minutes for it to figure out you had awakened and leave, you may not be a real hunter. If you have never had a sparrow land on your hat while sitting in a high seat, you may not be a real hunter. If you have never been threatened by a squirrel while sitting in a blind in a tree, you might not be a real hunter. If you never spent a month scouting the land, finding the water, learning the game trails in a tiny five acre patch of woods, figuring out the schedules of your prey, and finally after all of that spent an hour actually in your stand to harvest your animal, you probably are not a real hunter. If you never passed on the biggest rack you ever saw in our out of the woods because he was one yard past your self imposed shooting limit with your bow, you probably are not a real hunter.
If you don't love the animal that you kill, you probably are not a real hunter.
Not to take away from all the people pesting or shooting invasive species over bait in their back yards, but those things don't make you any more of a hunter than that fellow following that guide until the guide tells him "that one" and hands him his rifle, or the woman shooting a farm raised animal, or anyone else in particular.
What qualifies you to judge another person, when you do the same thing? Does the fellow who goes out to the field in his pickup and busts fifty prarie dogs in an afternoon from a prone rest in the truck qualify as a hunter?
I've done all of these things (except the guided hunt thing) and what makes me a REAL hunter is my love for the animals I harvest. What makes me a REAL hunter is a REAL HEART for the very real lives that I take. What makes me a REAL hunter is the shots I pass on, not the shots I take. It is the willingness to earn my kill whether it is for meat or for trophy (I have never had a head mounted). It is the pain I feel every time I think about that female Racoon I killed last fall because I thought she might be rabid, only to find out she was gravid and looking for food. That makes me a REAL hunter.
This hating on someone else because they don't qualify as a "real" hunter in your eyes is shameful really.
That's my two.
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Two things we need to define.
1. What is each ones definition of a game ranch? Is it by being enclosed by a high fence, minimal acres, breed of animal or what? I said it before, if you hunt a place with a square mile or more, it's not really much different than hunting whitetail normally if that is your prey.
Would it make a difference if it was bow or AG only where you need to get closer?
2. Do you support baiting for animals including squirrels? What is the fair chase ethic for that?
Going by memory. Michigan DNR years ago fenced in some land, I think it was a square mile. They allowed 5 hunters to go in and try to hunt the bucks. Took them 3 days to even see one. If I remember it took the 5 hunters 5 days to shoot just one buck.
That said, the interstate trading of animals should be banned. I've heard some scary tales of game ranch trades and sales but without any real evidence. I knew one guy who raised whitetails, he claims he sold a huge buck to Ted Nugent when Ted lived in Jackson, Michigan. No way I could verify it so take it with a grain of salt.
1. What is each ones definition of a game ranch? Is it by being enclosed by a high fence, minimal acres, breed of animal or what? I said it before, if you hunt a place with a square mile or more, it's not really much different than hunting whitetail normally if that is your prey.
Would it make a difference if it was bow or AG only where you need to get closer?
2. Do you support baiting for animals including squirrels? What is the fair chase ethic for that?
Going by memory. Michigan DNR years ago fenced in some land, I think it was a square mile. They allowed 5 hunters to go in and try to hunt the bucks. Took them 3 days to even see one. If I remember it took the 5 hunters 5 days to shoot just one buck.
That said, the interstate trading of animals should be banned. I've heard some scary tales of game ranch trades and sales but without any real evidence. I knew one guy who raised whitetails, he claims he sold a huge buck to Ted Nugent when Ted lived in Jackson, Michigan. No way I could verify it so take it with a grain of salt.
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What IF that one solitary buck was the only deer in that entire square mile?
Arguing in the alternative, maybe its a miracle those 5 alleged hunters were able to find the exit after taking their Buck?
Maybe the owners of the 'park' found the hunters (wandering aimlessly) to make them pay up?
Endless possibilities here, Gnomesayin?
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They are very few things in life, cooler than having a bird land on your body, while you’re in your stand.
there are a few things that are worse than having a squirrel climb up your tree towards you when you’re on your stand. One of them, is having the squirrel climb down towards you....I usually break down long before it gets to me, and hiss at it to scare it away. I don’t like rat like animals sharing my tree stand.
another worse thing, is walking up on a mama bear with cubs when you’re grouse hunting. I had just switched from a semi auto 12 gauge, to my 20 gauge single shot. I was tired of lugging the big gun around. Standing 20 feet from that mama bear, I sure was wishing for that 12 gauge semi auto...
In my state, people hunt bear
over bait. It’s legal, and that’s how it’s done. Doesn’t interest me. But a buddy of mine loves it.
I don’t think there’s very many people that would object to having this young lady celebrate her trophy. Whether you like game farms or not, it’s a personal choice. In fact, if that’s the only way you get people out hunting, it’s probably better than not at all.
If they hadn’t called it a world record, there would be very little of this folderal going on.
I’ve traveled for work for many years. I can remember one trip out east, there were three guys sitting at the bar in hunting gear... So of course I asked them what they were hunting. They replied deer
, And proceeded to show me pictures.
needless to say, these were really big freaking deer. Like nothing I’ve ever seen. When I exclaimed over the size of their kills, they quickly explained they were hunting in an enclosed fenced in area. They didn’t apologize, and they didn’t need to. They had paid big bucks for their hunt. And they got big bucks. $20k apiece.
it didn’t bother me, and it didn’t impress me. That’s OK, they weren’t trying to impress me. They were out to have fun, and it sure looked like they did.
The issue everyone is having on this post in my opinion, is calling it a world record. That’s silly. There’s very little difference between her animal, and one that lives in a zoo.
I was at Disney years ago with my children. We went on the Safari. There were some elephants that were really really big. I didn’t feel any need whatsoever to shoot one. And it would’ve been ridiculously easy. They lived in a large fenced in area. If Disney gave permission for a one time hunt, and it was big enough to be a world record...Would that make it a world record?
I personally don’t think so, but no one asked me.
The post wasn’t about whether we should hunt big game with air guns. That’s another topic altogether. And by the way, it’s happening every day and there’s nothing we can do about it.
The post wasn’t about whether or not it was a trophy. In my opinion it is a trophy, taken from a game farm. Having said that, the post did say in the title that game farms can create heartburn. Which does make the responses a bit confused. I am not going to define a trophy, to this young lady it was a trophy. For many other people it would not be. Whatever, that’s OK, we all have different opinions.
I put out food plots for the deer. It draws them in. That feels different to me than hunting on a fenced farm. There are other purist, that may not agree. That’s OK.
I wanted to thin the squirrel population out this winter. I had corn out for my local critters, it was after the season, late winter. I shot the squirrels as they came into the corn. I knew the exact distance, and I eliminated about 20 of them over a month period. Was that hunting or shooting? I would call it shooting.
I also buy an acre of standing corn every year from my neighbor who farms. Does this make me a bad person, bad hunter? Are the guys up north, who don’t have standing corn next to their property, more purest hunter than I am? Maybe, I’ve done it that way also.
when I hunt out west, there are no food plots, there is no corn lying on the ground, there are no fences, it certainly meets every qualification of fair chase.
In Wisconsin, one of the neighboring states, it’s legal to put corn out and bait deer. I shot my first buck with a bow while he was feeding. I spotted him coming in from about 100 yards away. It took him a good 30 minutes to creep up towards the corn. The entire time I was almost peeing my pants, talk about buck fever. Then when I went to draw, he busted me. So I sat there for a good 10 minutes, just holding very still Ready to draw, while he stared at me. He finally went back to eating the corn. And I drilled him right through the boiler room. To me that was a great trophy. It was a small buck. It’s still on my wall.
Many people wouldn’t call that hunting. Yet it’s legal in Wisconsin, and that is how almost everyone hunts. If you don’t have food out you have little chance. There is a smorgasbord of food in piles throughout the state.
we all have our own definition of what hunting is. Many many of us would disagree with that definition. Who cares?
conceivably, all of those deer that the guys sitting at the bar shot, we’re record book bucks from a size standpoint. Yet, I’ll guarantee you, none of them are in the record books. Because that would be silly. They lived in a fenced in area with no predators, and they’re fed every day.
I’ve chased pheasants down in Iowa for over 30 years. Yet I still enjoy going to the game farm and shooting some birds. When I cook them up and eat them, I don’t get any heartburn. But I don’t brag about getting a limit...
There are so many sides to this coin.
My 10 cents.
mike
there are a few things that are worse than having a squirrel climb up your tree towards you when you’re on your stand. One of them, is having the squirrel climb down towards you....I usually break down long before it gets to me, and hiss at it to scare it away. I don’t like rat like animals sharing my tree stand.
another worse thing, is walking up on a mama bear with cubs when you’re grouse hunting. I had just switched from a semi auto 12 gauge, to my 20 gauge single shot. I was tired of lugging the big gun around. Standing 20 feet from that mama bear, I sure was wishing for that 12 gauge semi auto...
In my state, people hunt bear
over bait. It’s legal, and that’s how it’s done. Doesn’t interest me. But a buddy of mine loves it.I don’t think there’s very many people that would object to having this young lady celebrate her trophy. Whether you like game farms or not, it’s a personal choice. In fact, if that’s the only way you get people out hunting, it’s probably better than not at all.
If they hadn’t called it a world record, there would be very little of this folderal going on.
I’ve traveled for work for many years. I can remember one trip out east, there were three guys sitting at the bar in hunting gear... So of course I asked them what they were hunting. They replied deer
, And proceeded to show me pictures.needless to say, these were really big freaking deer. Like nothing I’ve ever seen. When I exclaimed over the size of their kills, they quickly explained they were hunting in an enclosed fenced in area. They didn’t apologize, and they didn’t need to. They had paid big bucks for their hunt. And they got big bucks. $20k apiece.
it didn’t bother me, and it didn’t impress me. That’s OK, they weren’t trying to impress me. They were out to have fun, and it sure looked like they did.
The issue everyone is having on this post in my opinion, is calling it a world record. That’s silly. There’s very little difference between her animal, and one that lives in a zoo.
I was at Disney years ago with my children. We went on the Safari. There were some elephants that were really really big. I didn’t feel any need whatsoever to shoot one. And it would’ve been ridiculously easy. They lived in a large fenced in area. If Disney gave permission for a one time hunt, and it was big enough to be a world record...Would that make it a world record?
I personally don’t think so, but no one asked me.
The post wasn’t about whether we should hunt big game with air guns. That’s another topic altogether. And by the way, it’s happening every day and there’s nothing we can do about it.
The post wasn’t about whether or not it was a trophy. In my opinion it is a trophy, taken from a game farm. Having said that, the post did say in the title that game farms can create heartburn. Which does make the responses a bit confused. I am not going to define a trophy, to this young lady it was a trophy. For many other people it would not be. Whatever, that’s OK, we all have different opinions.
I put out food plots for the deer. It draws them in. That feels different to me than hunting on a fenced farm. There are other purist, that may not agree. That’s OK.
I wanted to thin the squirrel population out this winter. I had corn out for my local critters, it was after the season, late winter. I shot the squirrels as they came into the corn. I knew the exact distance, and I eliminated about 20 of them over a month period. Was that hunting or shooting? I would call it shooting.
I also buy an acre of standing corn every year from my neighbor who farms. Does this make me a bad person, bad hunter? Are the guys up north, who don’t have standing corn next to their property, more purest hunter than I am? Maybe, I’ve done it that way also.
when I hunt out west, there are no food plots, there is no corn lying on the ground, there are no fences, it certainly meets every qualification of fair chase.
In Wisconsin, one of the neighboring states, it’s legal to put corn out and bait deer
. I shot my first buck with a bow while he was feeding. I spotted him coming in from about 100 yards away. It took him a good 30 minutes to creep up towards the corn. The entire time I was almost peeing my pants, talk about buck fever. Then when I went to draw, he busted me. So I sat there for a good 10 minutes, just holding very still Ready to draw, while he stared at me. He finally went back to eating the corn. And I drilled him right through the boiler room. To me that was a great trophy. It was a small buck. It’s still on my wall.Many people wouldn’t call that hunting. Yet it’s legal in Wisconsin, and that is how almost everyone hunts. If you don’t have food out you have little chance. There is a smorgasbord of food in piles throughout the state.
we all have our own definition of what hunting is. Many many of us would disagree with that definition. Who cares?
conceivably, all of those deer that the guys sitting at the bar shot, we’re record book bucks from a size standpoint. Yet, I’ll guarantee you, none of them are in the record books. Because that would be silly. They lived in a fenced in area with no predators, and they’re fed every day.
I’ve chased pheasants down in Iowa for over 30 years. Yet I still enjoy going to the game farm and shooting some birds. When I cook them up and eat them, I don’t get any heartburn. But I don’t brag about getting a limit...
There are so many sides to this coin.
My 10 cents.
mike
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Easily worth a buck and a half. Well said, sir.
Too right on that little bugger running down the tree straight at your head. Mine jumped at the last second to the branch behind my head. AWESOME!!!
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Flintsack
Thanks Mike. I might as well mention a deer hunting tactic I used back in the 90's. Back in those days I used a belly boat / tube float for fishing. Used w/ chest waders to keep me warm, scuba fins to get me around and a hooded U.S. Army poncho & baseball cap. I used a snub nosed S&W .357 w/ a handload a guy in my church had cooked up for me. At the time, that handload was right at the limit of what a .38 +P is capable of. 148 gr wadcutter at 950 fps / 296 fpe from the 2.5 inch barrel.
We had a great deal. He loved to eat crappie; but, couldn't catch them for beans.I could (& still do) catch them. Once a month I'd give him a couple of ziploc bags stuffed full of crappie filet's and in return he'd give me a couple of boxes of his handloads. I had to supply the brass.
Deer would use this particular water shed to get to the lake. I'd get them just before sunset when they were drinking their fill to get them through the night. I'd be offshore in just the right depth of water so my fins were touching the bottom. I don't know what the deer thought they saw; but, it sure wasn't a man wearing a poncho in a belly boat.
I went for does. Never bucks. I was afraid I might miss a little and the shot would be deflected by antlers. I'd wait until they were drinking, then shoot them through the top of their head. Each and everyone of them always collapsed in their tracks. DRT.
I was mainly into making jerky and sausage from them, w/ the exception of the ribs and the backstrap.
Thanks Mike. I might as well mention a deer hunting tactic I used back in the 90's. Back in those days I used a belly boat / tube float for fishing. Used w/ chest waders to keep me warm, scuba fins to get me around and a hooded U.S. Army poncho & baseball cap. I used a snub nosed S&W .357 w/ a handload a guy in my church had cooked up for me. At the time, that handload was right at the limit of what a .38 +P is capable of. 148 gr wadcutter at 950 fps / 296 fpe from the 2.5 inch barrel.
We had a great deal. He loved to eat crappie; but, couldn't catch them for beans.I could (& still do) catch them. Once a month I'd give him a couple of ziploc bags stuffed full of crappie filet's and in return he'd give me a couple of boxes of his handloads. I had to supply the brass.
Deer would use this particular water shed to get to the lake. I'd get them just before sunset when they were drinking their fill to get them through the night. I'd be offshore in just the right depth of water so my fins were touching the bottom. I don't know what the deer thought they saw; but, it sure wasn't a man wearing a poncho in a belly boat.
I went for does. Never bucks. I was afraid I might miss a little and the shot would be deflected by antlers. I'd wait until they were drinking, then shoot them through the top of their head. Each and everyone of them always collapsed in their tracks. DRT.
I was mainly into making jerky and sausage from them, w/ the exception of the ribs and the backstrap.
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What IF that one solitary buck was the only deer in that entire square mile?
IIRC there were 5 bucks in that enclosure. The 5 were experienced hunters, they could find the exit. The hunters were chosen by the Michigan dnr for their prowess. No endless possibilities other than the bucks native intelligence for self preservation - which is very good. I watch my cat, he's a natural at walking around automatically using every bit of cover when going from one place to another. I've seen him walk right up to people who never have clue he's within 10 feet.
So what is your definition of a game ranch? You never answered that question. No one has. No one has answered the baiting question. Is baiting ethical for any animal?
If I could afford it, I'd love to hunt a big, high fenced ranch with monster whitetails. The price is always the stopping point. I also imagine the cost to own a high fence ranch is pretty darn high also.
IIRC there were 5 bucks in that enclosure. The 5 were experienced hunters, they could find the exit. The hunters were chosen by the Michigan dnr for their prowess. No endless possibilities other than the bucks native intelligence for self preservation - which is very good. I watch my cat, he's a natural at walking around automatically using every bit of cover when going from one place to another. I've seen him walk right up to people who never have clue he's within 10 feet.
So what is your definition of a game ranch? You never answered that question. No one has. No one has answered the baiting question. Is baiting ethical for any animal?
If I could afford it, I'd love to hunt a big, high fenced ranch with monster whitetails. The price is always the stopping point. I also imagine the cost to own a high fence ranch is pretty darn high also.
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Maybe those 5 'experienced & selected by the state for their prowess' hunters would have had better luck shooting at 5 fish in a barrel, ya think?
I already answered your question. See one or two of my previous posts in the thread.
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There is a big difference between a cage and a fenced ranch of a few hundred or a few thousand acres.
Trappers kill caged animals every day on a trap line. They feel good about harvesting that animal in the same way a hunter who has given fair chase feels good about harvesting his animal.
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True dat on your cat. I've seen white tails walk past a hunting stand at ten feet and be unnoticed. When you tell the hunter you saw it they inevitably refuse to believe you. Something similar happened to me in NZ once. The fellow who took me up into the Howe Range to hunt told me a Samba walked past me at about 30 feet. I never heard him or saw him and it was pretty hard for me to believe the man, but I had no reason not to believe him. There was sign all over the place.
You can't win an argument with a zealot. The zealot has claimed the high moral ground (whether rightly or wrongly) and will never cede an inch to your points.
The zealot has defined his morality in his terms and demands either your agreement or your acknowledgement of his moral superiority.
The only opinion you are entitled to is his.
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No, you haven't answered my questions. You've come up with some exaggerations of thoughts you think might keep you from having to answer. Go back and give it a real try.
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