Game farms...Why I get heart burn with them!

[alleycatter]

I agree; can't feel right about shooting a caged animal.

Same question. What makes a game ranch not right? If you're in Texas hunting whitetails on a 5 square mile ranch is that still a game farm even if they put out feed? Whitetails generally live out their entire lives in a one mile square area, so if that Texas ranch has high fences does that make it a game farm in your opinion? If not would you please define what you believe makes a game farm?

Do you think baiting is ethical? The videos you see where they have a bait station complete with squirrel sized picnic table, is that ethical? Squirrels may be a pest to most everyone but isn't that equivalent to a game farm? 

Actually, these are some of the questions I've used in my over 15 years as a Hunting Safety Education Instructor.

 

[Longfellow]

IIRC there were 5 bucks in that enclosure. The 5 were experienced hunters, they could find the exit. The hunters were chosen by the Michigan dnr for their prowess. No endless possibilities other than the bucks native intelligence for self preservation

Maybe those 5 'experienced & selected by the state for their prowess' hunters would have had better luck shooting at 5 fish in a barrel, ya think?

I already answered your question. See one or two of my previous posts in the thread.

No, you haven't answered my questions. You've come up with some exaggerations of thoughts you think might keep you from having to answer. Go back and give it a real try.

Oh, I see. Because I didn't answer your question to your satisfaction, then to you your question wasn't answered at all. I get it. You have this idea that AGN is like Burger King. Where you can get everything your way here. That attitude is incorrect. AGN isn't Burger King. You can take things my way here or you won't get anything at all.

Considering you're not granting me the courtesy of answering my questions, is there any reason I shouldn't return your gesture in the same spirit you intended it?

 

[Longfellow]

I agree; can't feel right about shooting a caged animal.

Same question. What makes a game ranch not right? If you're in Texas hunting whitetails on a 5 square mile ranch is that still a game farm even if they put out feed? Whitetails generally live out their entire lives in a one mile square area, so if that Texas ranch has high fences does that make it a game farm in your opinion? If not would you please define what you believe makes a game farm?

Do you think baiting is ethical? The videos you see where they have a bait station complete with squirrel sized picnic table, is that ethical? Squirrels may be a pest to most everyone but isn't that equivalent to a game farm? 

Actually, these are some of the questions I've used in my over 15 years as a Hunting Safety Education Instructor.

That's incorrect.

TPWD: White-tailed Deer – Introducing Mammals to Young ...

https://tpwd.texas.gov/publications/nonpwdpubs/introducing_mammals/white_tailed_deer/

Studies in Texas have shown that most white-tails spend their entire lives within a mile and a half to three miles of their birth place, traveling farther only during the breeding seasons. Woody vegetation is a basic habitat requirement, and deer eat mostly browse (leaves, twigs, young shoots of woody plants, and vines) and forbs (weeds and other broadleaf flowering plants).

 

[Longfellow]

I agree; can't feel right about shooting a caged animal.

Do you think baiting is ethical? The videos you see where they have a bait station complete with squirrel sized picnic table, is that ethical? Squirrels may be a pest to most everyone but isn't that equivalent to a game farm? 

Actually, these are some of the questions I've used in my over 15 years as a Hunting Safety Education Instructor.

Ethical | Definition of Ethical at Dictionary.com
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/ethical
adjective pertaining to or dealing with morals or the principles of morality; pertaining to right and wrong in conduct. being in accordance with the rules or standards for right conduct or practice, especially the standards of a profession: 

Most folks w/ backyards containing bait stations for squirrels tend to lack the high fences at the drive thru / canned hunting, so called 'ranches'. Gnomesayin?

I checked your posting history. Out of your 47 posts, I saw no evidence you've spent 'over 15 years as a Hunting Safety Education Instructor' ... nor did I see any posts indicating where you have actually ever killed anything. I did see one post where you admitted you're a noob to the sport. Which sort of contradicts your claim of spending 'over 15 years as a Hunting Safety Education Instructor'.

Tell us? Do you consider it to be ethical to ask loaded questions at a hunting forum when you're obviously anti-hunting? And/or into target practice only or popping balloons w/ your Akela?

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Blackpaw]

okay I have caught and say I didn’t expect this to go this far in comments. Also based off comments I need to add some thoughts that might expand some prospective in som ways.

Today I had a discussion over the phone with my friend @vitals2k who has countless big game trophies elk deer etc and he is from birth a life time hunter. Based off my discussion with @vital2k and reading comments here I reflected to give the below comments which is about “being in and able to survive”. He said his buddy compared bragged his dad’s killed something @vitals2k never did and true, but he went to a farm to do it. @vitals2k spent 3 plus weeks trying to get the perfect bull elk with a bow and arrow stalking each morning before work. Finally he got the animal he wanted. The bull elk was a beautiful 5 point / 10 point and he did it based off a life time of trial and error learning from birth to hunt rawest level. 
We all have our own level of what is considered “true hunting” and I compare this to everything, some ppl thrive in some environments and success while others can’t even though they are doing the same thing, professional vs amateur.

We can compare it to business. Some people build their own business and wealth and some are given it. So based off the some of the comments, being given a successful business is the same as doing it yourself. So the person given everything worked as hard as the people who started and achieved at the rawest level, business is business. My dad give it $10 million is the same as my buddy busting his ass for 80 hours per week as me sitting on beach drinking beer. 


also if you are not sports all athletes are equal in either achievements and ability, being the fasts 100 min runner is the same as being my small town 5 km and I won because everyone else tripped before the finish line. 
The young who was driven out and shown the ram to shoot is the 5 km not the fastest on earth. 
i was raised on two primary ethics sweat and achievement are and are not the same thing. Swear means how how hard and long you work for it, do it totally yourself is the highest level aka world record and then the levels go down from there, from the rawest most basic levels to the cushy comfy. 

 

[Guest]

What IF that one solitary buck was the only deer in that entire square mile?

Arguing in the alternative, maybe its a miracle those 5 alleged hunters were able to find the exit after taking their Buck?

Maybe the owners of the 'park' found the hunters (wandering aimlessly) to make them pay up?

Endless possibilities here, Gnomesayin?

IIRC there were 5 bucks in that enclosure. The 5 were experienced hunters, they could find the exit. The hunters were chosen by the Michigan dnr for their prowess. No endless possibilities other than the bucks native intelligence for self preservation - which is very good. I watch my cat, he's a natural at walking around automatically using every bit of cover when going from one place to another.

I've seen him walk right up to people who never have clue he's within 10 feet.

True dat on your cat. I've seen white tails walk past a hunting stand at ten feet and be unnoticed. When you tell the hunter you saw it they inevitably refuse to believe you. Something similar happened to me in NZ once. The fellow who took me up into the Howe Range to hunt told me a Samba walked past me at about 30 feet. I never heard him or saw him and it was pretty hard for me to believe the man, but I had no reason not to believe him. There was sign all over the place.

You can't win an argument with a zealot. The zealot has claimed the high moral ground (whether rightly or wrongly) and will never cede an inch to your points.

The zealot has defined his morality in his terms and demands either your agreement or your acknowledgement of his moral superiority.

The only opinion you are entitled to is his.

 

[Guest]

okay I have caught and say I didn’t expect this to go this far in comments. Also based off comments I need to add some thoughts that might expand some prospective in som ways.

Today I had a discussion over the phone with my friend @vitals2k who has countless big game trophies elk deer etc and he is from birth a life time hunter. Based off my discussion with @vital2k and reading comments here I reflected to give the below comments which is about “being in and able to survive”. He said his buddy compared bragged his dad’s killed something @vitals2k never did and true, but he went to a farm to do it. @vitals2k spent 3 plus weeks trying to get the perfect bull elk with a bow and arrow stalking each morning before work. Finally he got the animal he wanted. The bull elk was a beautiful 5 point / 10 point and he did it based off a life time of trial and error learning from birth to hunt rawest level. 
We all have our own level of what is considered “true hunting” and I compare this to everything, some ppl thrive in some environments and success while others can’t even though they are doing the same thing, professional vs amateur.

We can compare it to business. Some people build their own business and wealth and some are given it. So based off the some of the comments, being given a successful business is the same as doing it yourself. So the person given everything worked as hard as the people who started and achieved at the rawest level, business is business. My dad give it $10 million is the same as my buddy busting his ass for 80 hours per week as me sitting on beach drinking beer. 


also if you are not sports all athletes are equal in either achievements and ability, being the fasts 100 min runner is the same as being my small town 5 km and I won because everyone else tripped before the finish line. 
The young who was driven out and shown the ram to shoot is the 5 km not the fastest on earth. 
i was raised on two primary ethics sweat and achievement are and are not the same thing. Swear means how how hard and long you work for it, do it totally yourself is the highest level aka world record and then the levels go down from there, from the rawest most basic levels to the cushy comfy. 

You make an awful lot of assumptions about what other people believe. You would do well to actually read the comments already made FOR CONTENT before making those assumptions...

 

[Blackpaw]

@cornpone, I and I think most people aren't zealots on this topic. However, I do believe that if you want to call yourself / achievement, basically the same thing, the best of the best then you need to scale the level of achievement. Also, I judge the achieve to the level it is, mainly the ethics of it, and I feel people should be and are most effective in the moderate on views and judgements. Most people who really know me find my Old Western Democrat approach to things refreshing, especially today's world. I use this moderate approach on almost all aspects of my life, but here is an example.

Right before I went to go live overseas I had two flat coated retrievers, and we loved to hunt birds, i.e. pheasant, chukars, grouse and etc. My dogs were brilliant at it, and we never always got the bird. The predator is at mercy of the prey. Well, one day the dogs and I came back empty from a hard day in the field under crappy conditions and only got one bird after a days work. I went to a local cafe to get a snack and feed the dogs before we headed home. Inside the cafe I struck up a conversation with someone who was from out of state didn't know the area like I did, and so went with his buddy to a pheasant farm and limited out, surprise surprise.  He asked how I did with the dogs, told him the truth no reason not to, and he said my dogs must need some training and recommended next time I just do the game farm. EXCUSE ME!!!!, how is his hunting planted birds the same level as me spending hours in the on and off rain and etc, the same as mine. He got his all handed to him if he was a halfway decent shot, where I worked for mine countless hours training the dogs, getting to know the area and etc.

I will never put someone's game farm trophy where they spent probably $50,000 to get the ram on the same ones as people who work maybe years to achieve the same thing on their own merit. When I mean own merit, it is spending countless hours to get to know the terrain, learning everything they can, and some people do recon for a year or two before ever doing the hunt. Yes, some people don't have the time, but if you have the time to go to a spa resort, you have time to head to a state like Idaho and learn the country and animals before the hunt vs. instant gratification of a game farm.

 

[alleycatter]

IIRC there were 5 bucks in that enclosure. The 5 were experienced hunters, they could find the exit. The hunters were chosen by the Michigan dnr for their prowess. No endless possibilities other than the bucks native intelligence for self preservation

Maybe those 5 'experienced & selected by the state for their prowess' hunters would have had better luck shooting at 5 fish in a barrel, ya think?

I already answered your question. See one or two of my previous posts in the thread.

No, you haven't answered my questions. You've come up with some exaggerations of thoughts you think might keep you from having to answer. Go back and give it a real try.

Oh, I see. Because I didn't answer your question to your satisfaction, then to you your question wasn't answered at all. I get it. You have this idea that AGN is like Burger King. Where you can get everything your way here. That attitude is incorrect. AGN isn't Burger King. You can take things my way here or you won't get anything at all.

Considering you're not granting me the courtesy of answering my questions, is there any reason I shouldn't return your gesture in the same spirit you intended it?

Which question, the one about maybe one buck in the enclosure, they can't find the exit or the shooting fish in a barrel. You sure are going to great lengths to avoid making a real answer. Looking up Texas DOW for deer range and the dictionary definition of ethical - none of which is your own personal answer. Kind of like you wanted a pat on the head for something virtuous. Ok, here you go .

So here's a couple of answers for you since you asked.

Just a couple pictures for you. And yes, the cert ended 6/3/2020 as I "retired" after the 15 years. Plus the DNR stopped classes due to the wuflu. I have a few more mounts, but after them I now just keep the antlers, beards and spurs.

I'd add in my club's life membership card but that would be too much personal information.

 

[Longfellow]

Oh, I see. Because I didn't answer your question to your satisfaction, then to you your question wasn't answered at all. I get it. You have this idea that AGN is like Burger King. Where you can get everything your way here. That attitude is incorrect. AGN isn't Burger King. You can take things my way here or you won't get anything at all.

Considering you're not granting me the courtesy of answering my questions, is there any reason I shouldn't return your gesture in the same spirit you intended it?

Which question, the one about maybe one buck in the enclosure, they can't find the exit or the shooting fish in a barrel. You sure are going to great lengths to avoid making a real answer. Looking up Texas DOW for deer range and the dictionary definition of ethical - none of which is your own personal answer. Kind of like you wanted a pat on the head for something virtuous. Ok, here you go

.

So here's a couple of answers for you since you asked.

Just a couple pictures for you. And yes, the cert ended 6/3/2020 as I "retired" after the 15 years. Plus the DNR stopped classes due to the wuflu. I have a few more mounts, but after them I now just keep the antlers, beards and spurs.

I'd add in my club's life membership card but that would be too much personal information.

"You're really ... quite emotional, aren't you?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2hkw-qYEWQ

Probably one of the best lines in the movie: "I owe you an apology, Colonel. I always thought that you were a cold, unimaginative, tight lipped officer. But you're really ... quite emotional. Aren't you?

'Texas DOW for deer range' demonstrated you don't know what you're talking about, did it not? Where's the documentation for your 'IIRC' story of the 5 hunters? (If it happened, its documented.)

Cool story. Cool pics too. Makes me wonder which taxidermy website they came from. Neither of which have anything to do w/ why you're asking baited (please excuse the pun), anti-hunting questions at a hunting forum. 

 

[JohnnyPDX]

Game farms and "hunting" are apples and oranges.

Some folks have more money than time and just wanna kill something. It's the United States of America and we can do poop like that!!!!!

 

[Blackpaw]

@johnnyPDX that is true, it is like someone building your deck for you showing you everything to do and why they do the heavy and complex stuff you hammer the nails, vs doing everything yourself from scratch.

Some people don't have the time, or passion, that is why many of these game farms are more killing and not hunting because for the cash you are guaranteed something, a trophy, and natural hunting isn't that way. In true hunting the predator is not always successful and the prey gets away regardless how much money you have and effort put in.

 

[JohnnyPDX]

In this area we call it "part-time hunter full-time elk" and most guys never shoot one and rarely see one.

My buddy sees a lot of elk but rarely pulls the trigger because he's a horn hunter. Not bad just different. 

 

[Guest]

Your problem and Longfellow's for that matter is very simple. You are offended that someone else might take a trophy that you envy by a means you do not approve. In short you rate your own performance against the other fellow. If anything that demonstrates a complete lack of understanding why "real" hunters hunt. You both just have to keep score. Kinda sad really.

 

[Blackpaw]

@cornpone, LOL DUDE!!!!! I am not a big game hunter to begin with so I don’t give a poop what it is, it is how it was claimed. 

I am about the raw essense of hunting and the writings of Lefty Cray, John Gierach, Gene Hill and James Swan who wrote the book called in Defense of Hunting.

So what do you hunt? Yesterday i had this discussion with my buddy @vitals2k who said it is completely bull to compare a canned hunt effort to someone spending days hiking 6 hours vertically in the remote backcountry of Idaho for a bighorn sheep, and that you pack out yourself. Ps, this is in the wilderness areas of Idaho, horse or foot only, no ATVs here. My buddy has trophy after trophy if you will, and he is first a meat eater, but always goes for the best he can get, I admire his patience and determination. I don’t think he will care if I tell this story. He is known in my hometown of Pocatello, Idaho for being a successful hunter. He said someone said that, “Hey my dad out did Tom finally, he got a buffalo on the reservation, Tom told me he exploded and got in the guy’s face stating, any moron with $5,000 can go down to the reservation and pay to shoot a damn buffalo, its no different than shooting a cow in the field!” 

Also, I only kill for purpose or food. I have done the prairie dog shooting in Wyoming for years, now I will no longer do it unless the animals are causing crop damage if they are out there on the public land, it is of no interest to me. Starlings are fair game because they destroy native habitat and species, and so on.

It is fine to buy your trophies, just say what it is, and give the full details full disclosure, but don’t try to claim it is the same as taking the same the wild which is a different level.

 

[Longfellow]

Apparently Cornpone is the same sort of 'zealot' he accuses others of being. That's called:

Psychological projection

Psychological projection is a defense mechanism in which the ego defends itself against unconscious impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves and attributing them to others. For example, a bully may project his or her own feelings of vulnerability onto the target, or a person who is confused may project feelings of confusion and inadequacy onto other people.
Projection incorporates blame shifting and can manifest as shame dumping.

Projection tends to come to the fore in normal people at times of personal or political crisis but is more commonly found in narcissistic personality disorder or borderline personality disorder.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

 

[JohnnyPDX]

Sunday Sunday Sunday 

BIG Event!!!

Longfellow vs. Cornpone

Buy Your Tickets Now

Don't Miss It

 

[Longfellow]

Sunday Sunday Sunday 

BIG Event!!!

Longfellow vs. Cornpone

Buy Your Tickets Now

Don't Miss It

Not in this thread, Johnny. You're welcome to start a thread w/ that topic yourself elsewhere.

The topic in this thread is ... 'Game ranch' = Cage = Canned hunting = Drive thru airgun hunting

 

[Blackpaw]

From part of an article written from James Swan called Hunting and Religion: https://www.rokslide.com/hunting-and-religion/ Read the bold print below.

“One expert on hunting is Catholic priest and Chairman of the Philosophy Department at St. Louis University, Father Theodore Vitali, who’s also an avid hunter and ethicist for the Boone and Crockett Club.

Father Vitali says: “For a hunter to be ethical, he needs to have a reason to kill—the two most prominent reasons being the right to obtain healthy food, and secondly, the conservation value for wildlife management. A third would be self-defense. A fourth would be management and conservation of the land, such as controlling deer in urban areas, lessening crop damage, or preventing zoonotic disease.”

Father Vitali says that Fair Chase is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit and taking of free-ranging wild game animals that “puts you on equal terms with the animal.”

 

[JohnnyPDX]

The four rules only apply to a "hunter' so I feel even better about killing starling even though it makes zero sense ecologically. I just LOVE KILLING THEM.

Humans are awesome, we kill for pleasure.