Tuning FX Maverick full beans!

[Rallyshark]

Wow! Great work Ignoto!! You have a lot of cool things going on there with your Maverick for sure. I love the tuning mods you made with it. I wish I had some of your skills/tools! I would love to get my hands on an 800mm .22 barrel to see what my gun could do with it, but I think you've set the bar pretty darn high. I'll second what everyone else said about the PEEK too. It's harder and stronger, so you can get away with a smaller diameter poppet, and because it's harder, it'll release from the valve seat easier. The downside of PEEK is that it can be harder to get to seal at first.

Like you, I'd love to be able to talk to one of the engineers at FX about the Maverick. It could be so much more with some tweaks to the design. The top changes I'd make is: (A) A double cocking rod to prevent the rod from bending with higher spring settings. (B) A change in how the lever attaches to the cocking rod, and a heavier built side lever connection. (C) A redesign of the the valve section to allow for a larger valve seat. (D) A larger opening on the breech to handle longer lead and maybe Panthera magazines.

I'm actually running a little larger valve seat(7.2mm), but I made my PEEK poppet larger too. I could have made the poppet a little smaller, but it was the first one I had done and wasn't sure how it would hold up long term. That was many thousands of very high power shots ago, haha. I definitely left a little power on the table with the valve, but don't want to take it apart, because it has been working so well It is currently tuned to shoot 78.2 grain boattails(.30) at 981 for 167 fpe. I only have a 16.5 gram hammer weight, so I want to get my hands on a tungsten one after deer season is over.

The work you've done is absolutely stellar man! I suspect that little spacer you made to give you clearance for the adjustable valve return is probably helping a little with the power too. Just an all around awesome build on that Maverick Ignoto. My hat is off to you on this one

 

[Glem.Chally]

That's insane, both of you. The maverick is the FX power king at the moment for sure. 109fpe in .22 and 167 in .30 is bonkers. Innovative work both of you.

 

[Rallyshark]

Thanks Glem! I'm more impressed with Ignoto's build than my own. 109 fpe in .22 is just nuts! The thing that really gets me with these Mavericks is the power they make with such a small valve. Well, small compared to size of the valve opening in the Impact. I sure would like to get my hands on an M3 one of these days. Actually, I'm holding out hope that FX will manage to fit that Panthera block/valve into a bullpup someday!

 

[Glem.Chally]

Thanks Glem! I'm more impressed with Ignoto's build than my own. 109 fpe in .22 is just nuts! The thing that really gets me with these Mavericks is the power they make with such a small valve. Well, small compared to size of the valve opening in the Impact. I sure would like to get my hands on an M3 one of these days. Actually, I'm holding out hope that FX will manage to fit that Panthera block/valve into a bullpup someday!

It's that plenum size! And yeah hoping the next Impact uses this valve and a bigger plenum.

 

[Rallyshark]

You ain't wrong there!

 

[weevil]

To Rallyshark and other “edge case” tuners, how do you find the added drama of the shot cycle? I ask because I tuned my Wildcat BT 22-700 to what might be called the OTS ragged edge. 170bar with Huma regs, extra plenum and all of the other common mods. At first I was thrilled to see 1050fps on the knee of max power with Javelin 34g slugs, but the novelty wore off a lot faster than the ringing in my plugged ears. Yeah - the hammer noise alone will scare off any sentient being within 200 yards. Plus, the bucking during the shot destroyed any hope of accuracy, even with my pretty effective DIY barrel tensioner. Even dropping down to 30 grain slugs at the same speed, it still makes for an unsettled experience. The only saving grace is a remarkable Zen and phenomenal accuracy that arrives on power level 1, shooting 26g Javs at the same 1050fps. I’ll trade that any day for the relatively small loss of BC and energy down range. Perhaps the Maverick is a more solid platform.

 

[Ignoto]

If you can make your own parts for the valve you can pretty much fix any parts that become a problem and I understand the chase for better bc my problem is I just can't stop tinkering or improving upon either so yeah it's a addiction

I wouldn't call those parts a problem if they work well which i can't complain since the gun only gave me 1 issue and that's a leak from the time i received it that was a human error on a deformed oring in the pressure gauge and that was easy to solve. The part of the addiction.. yeah my wife calls the gun my girlfriend for some months now.. can't deny it.

 

[Ignoto]

Wow! Great work Ignoto!! You have a lot of cool things going on there with your Maverick for sure. I love the tuning mods you made with it. I wish I had some of your skills/tools! I would love to get my hands on an 800mm .22 barrel to see what my gun could do with it, but I think you've set the bar pretty darn high. I'll second what everyone else said about the PEEK too. It's harder and stronger, so you can get away with a smaller diameter poppet, and because it's harder, it'll release from the valve seat easier. The downside of PEEK is that it can be harder to get to seal at first.

Like you, I'd love to be able to talk to one of the engineers at FX about the Maverick. It could be so much more with some tweaks to the design. The top changes I'd make is: (A) A double cocking rod to prevent the rod from bending with higher spring settings. (B) A change in how the lever attaches to the cocking rod, and a heavier built side lever connection. (C) A redesign of the the valve section to allow for a larger valve seat. (D) A larger opening on the breech to handle longer lead and maybe Panthera magazines.

I'm actually running a little larger valve seat(7.2mm), but I made my PEEK poppet larger too. I could have made the poppet a little smaller, but it was the first one I had done and wasn't sure how it would hold up long term. That was many thousands of very high power shots ago, haha. I definitely left a little power on the table with the valve, but don't want to take it apart, because it has been working so well It is currently tuned to shoot 78.2 grain boattails(.30) at 981 for 167 fpe. I only have a 16.5 gram hammer weight, so I want to get my hands on a tungsten one after deer season is over.

The work you've done is absolutely stellar man! I suspect that little spacer you made to give you clearance for the adjustable valve return is probably helping a little with the power too. Just an all around awesome build on that Maverick Ignoto. My hat is off to you on this one

Thanks man it's mainly your fault and i copied some of your ideas and started connecting dots. You are right not to mess with an assembled valve pin. I have done my testing on my original one with different diameter, thickness and geometry and even removed the material for testing purposes with a Dremel and it IS a pain to seal harder plastics with little surface area with a plenum this big. Only my air compressor knows what i mean. I even have one poppet made of very soft aluminium to test in the future.

The part of the tooling i do have acess to cnc machines but only mills no lathe was used. And that needle like valve pin was best made in a single clamp operation because any lateral force on roughing material bent the part on the 2nd clamp due to the frail nature of the part.

Airflow geometry is not the best in the case of the wildcat/maverick block and after designing a 3D model from my own i found some easy ways to study what could be done or not and how the gun actually worked. (This is my very first airgun) and right now this block is bottlenecked after the valve by 7mm channels. IF it can be enlarged SAFELY i can't say right now but i ran a pressure simulation on the block i draw and is has a good safety factor. I think you can enlarge the vertical channel ( to the transfer port) since it isn't under constant pressure for 7.62mm or .30 user out there. These blocks are best used up to 6.35 or .25 unconstrained.

Those improvements you mentioned on the cocking rod i do understand the fact that the way the lever is done is not in the best position and not the most rock solid one and i though about it too. And i have tinkered with some ideas to improve too. But even in those 200bars your gun works and with the oversized poppet (=more work for the hammer) it stands it's own even if barely. I think your best bet is a smaller poppet (if you don't plan on enlarging the block air ports after the valve) or just going with a denser material for the hammer witch should need less hammer spring pre load. If you look at my sidelever it is using about half the original travel and i cock it in full power with one finger. Bear in mind the hammer i use is not like the fx sells wich is a tungsten alloy (about 1.6x denser than steel) i use almost pure tungsten carbide (1.96x denser and this stuff is used to cut every other metal so can't be machined). It's not about going big but about going smart

 

[Ignoto]

Thanks Glem! I'm more impressed with Ignoto's build than my own. 109 fpe in .22 is just nuts! The thing that really gets me with these Mavericks is the power they make with such a small valve. Well, small compared to size of the valve opening in the Impact. I sure would like to get my hands on an M3 one of these days. Actually, I'm holding out hope that FX will manage to fit that Panthera block/valve into a bullpup someday!

Now that's what i like about the FX policy no gun is left behind! Sort off.. i never owned or seen an impact internally but in that new panthera gun valve system is where i would put my money.
Just not a bullpup.. maybe next time airflow is key though.

 

[Ignoto]

To Rallyshark and other “edge case” tuners, how do you find the added drama of the shot cycle? I ask because I tuned my Wildcat BT 22-700 to what might be called the OTS ragged edge. 170bar with Huma regs, extra plenum and all of the other common mods. At first I was thrilled to see 1050fps on the knee of max power with Javelin 34g slugs, but the novelty wore off a lot faster than the ringing in my plugged ears. Yeah - the hammer noise alone will scare off any sentient being within 200 yards. Plus, the bucking during the shot destroyed any hope of accuracy, even with my pretty effective DIY barrel tensioner. Even dropping down to 30 grain slugs at the same speed, it still makes for an unsettled experience. The only saving grace is a remarkable Zen and phenomenal accuracy that arrives on power level 1, shooting 26g Javs at the same 1050fps. I’ll trade that any day for the relatively small loss of BC and energy down range. Perhaps the Maverick is a more solid platform.

Although a pcp mostly has no recoil, at these power levels there is certainly one and hold sensitivity starts it's play now. I do like the mid range pressures and mid range (30gr) slugs for that matter too. Standing shots is a delight and thats how the gun is supposed to be shooting in my personal opinion.
Noise in my case is not a problem even at 170bars obviously it depends on how you tune the gun. For all it's worth i only use the front and rear section of the original moderator (no mid section) and it is silent if the projectile is not transonic or supersonic. If not using the heaviest lead for the caliber even the shroud is more than enough. But try it don't take my words.

 

[mtnGhost]

Yeah the recoil sucks. At 130-150FPE in .30cal, I have to work extra hard to hold it on target. I have no issues with harmonics with my barrel & shroud systems, but the muzzle / rifle can definitely flip when I shoulder it too far below the long axis of the bore (the K&L KLS-2/3 stock lets me raise it where it needs to be though).

If you're running a longer barrel, my advice is to focus effort on increasing the valve spring tension to maximize dwell time. It should NOT interfere with the overall travel though! I realized long ago that pin itself also needs to be fabricated in a way that increases the length of the striker side and shorter on the spring side so every micrometer of extra travel is made possible. I also made my PEEK seal as short as possible length-wise.

Anyways, the main thing that I wanted to share is that the mechanics of that return spring are crucial.

 

[weevil]

Although a pcp mostly has no recoil, at these power levels there is certainly one and hold sensitivity starts it's play now. I do like the mid range pressures and mid range (30gr) slugs for that matter too. Standing shots is a delight and thats how the gun is supposed to be shooting in my personal opinion.
Noise in my case is not a problem even at 170bars obviously it depends on how you tune the gun. For all it's worth i only use the front and rear section of the original moderator (no mid section) and it is silent if the projectile is not transonic or supersonic. If not using the heaviest lead for the caliber even the shroud is more than enough. But try it don't take my words.

Thanks for your response. To be clear, I have no problem with the subsonic muzzle report. It is the hammer noise right next to my ear, which at “full beans”, even with muffs and plugs, is pretty extreme. Perhaps the maverick is better insulated. Certainly, my M3 is a much better design in that regard and I probably should have used that as a platform to build a longer range, heavy slug shootin 22. However, I love it in .22 500mm form because it is so robust, maneuverable and versatile. I can dial it from shooting Hades at 800 to 23g Javelins at 980 with the same 160bar tune and it is a laser across the board with zero drama.

I’m also curious to know if you guys are running your hot-rodded rigs on nitrogen? I made that switch several years ago by renting a large tank and buying the appropriate cylinder reg. It’s a bit of a financial hit at the outset but has made sense longer term because I’m no longer replacing compressors each year. Anyway, the reason I mention this here is that with all my PCPs I see a 3-4% increase in speed/fpe with no downside. I presume this comes from the fact that the oxygen in air increases its overall mass and the energy needed to move it, which allows more to be devoted to the projectile. Same principle as helium but a much more subtle effect. Still, in my M3 compact, the 40fps increase that I get with slugs seems to tighten up the groups. Also, I suspect that the effect would be even greater for people in humid environments (I’m in high desert), because moving water molecules is even more costly!

 

[revenger]

that is interesting about the nitrogen. That's a significant increase in speed.

 

[Ignoto]

Sorry man but at the moment it is not my interest to mess with diferent gases since i aim at reduced cost, accuracy and autonomy for shot count and air efficiency and since my 200bucks compressor has served me well since the beginning with the periodically needed service but i support your quest in doing so just as long as you make your best to understand what are the dangers involved with all the chemical reactions and not to do anything out of curiosity and spontaneously that could result in serious injury or death and most likely bring other restrictions in the future in airgun laws.

Has for the ping noise you hear it definitely is present in the maverick has well but i found it to be louder the faster the travel speed of the hammer and you only hear it with slow moving projectiles and with almost no excessive air wasted out the front. I have placed delrin and an o ring between the hammer weight and the hammer itself (this amplified extreme spread a lot) to find out the bigger noise comes from the actual contact between the hammer and the valve. I have postponed further modding for a while but i will try something new when i have the time.

 

[Ignoto]

To rallyshark and other users who find hammer being hard or do too much noise, i think we can test something else. Since these kind of valves are partially balanced we can make some new larger diameter valve shaft (the rear end where the poppet goes in) to reduce the surface area under plenum pressure and make it much easier to open has long has we don't go to extremes because worst case the valve might open at a shake of the rifle or dump all the air in case it won't recover. It will also affect low pressure rigs but it can be handled with stronger valve return springs. Obviously the valve house cover, shaft oring and oring cover (plastic) needs modded and consistency and tolerances will need experimenting.

 

[Ignoto]

I realized long ago that pin itself also needs to be fabricated in a way that increases the length of the striker side and shorter on the spring side

I also made my PEEK seal as short as possible length-wise.

Anyways, the main thing that I wanted to share is that the mechanics of that return spring are crucial.

You mean like this?

i think the thickness was about 1.5mm and worked for some time. Been there with testing, but never found benefit with the hammer i have. May try different lenght of travel in the future but to date didn't found the need. I must say though that from about 130 bar and up with the STOCK valve pin and seat there is some kind of constriction in airflow that starts to impair the gains in energy in relation to working pressure. Can't say where it is with this valve arrangement right now and i can only speak for .22

 

[mtnGhost]

You mean like this?
View attachment 316241
i think the thickness was about 1.5mm and worked for some time. Been there with testing, but never found benefit with the hammer i have. May try different lenght of travel in the future but to date didn't found the need. I must say though that from about 130 bar and up with the STOCK valve pin and seat there is some kind of constriction in airflow that starts to impair the gains in energy in relation to working pressure. Can't say where it is with this valve arrangement right now and i can only speak for .22

Here's one of the springs that I use with my valve:


There's also a potential safety issue with high power and big slugs in hard lead. Going back to the drawing board on how to beef up the cocking rod attachment to the lever clamp. I got some more hard lead 62 grain slugs from Varmint Knockers recently and retuned my Maverick for 200bar on the reg.

The problem that I'm running into with the tighter bore TJ barrel and this ammo is the pressure makes the probe give way before the slugs obturate and travel down the bore. In other words, these two little M3 set screws clamped to my music wire rod are no longer sufficient to hold the cocking rod in place and it winds up breaking free from the clamp.

I'm weighing my options, but I'm kind of drawing a blank beyond machining a newer, beefier clamp that would allow for more set screws to be used to secure the rod in place. It would be too much of a pain to thread the rod into the clamp, since I always micro-adjust the position of the rod/probe in the clamp to optimize the ammo seating depth in whatever barrel / ammo that I'm using. There's not enough meat to add more screws in the factory clamp.

 

[Rallyshark]

Back when I was running a tool steel cocking rod, I took a dremel and made slight depressions in the shaft where the grub screws contacted the rod. I also used red loctite on the screws. That kept it from moving on that harder cocking rod. I abandoned the HSS rod when it snapped on me during a shot, lol. It did last quite a while though. I'm now using a "dual" cocking rod setup by way of a second cocking rod that terminates on the lever side of the block. That has held up for a few thousand shots at this point. It has been taking over 170 fpe repeatedly with no issues lately, fwiw. It ain't pretty, but it works.

 

[revenger]

Here's one of the springs that I use with my valve:


There's also a potential safety issue with high power and big slugs in hard lead. Going back to the drawing board on how to beef up the cocking rod attachment to the lever clamp. I got some more hard lead 62 grain slugs from Varmint Knockers recently and retuned my Maverick for 200bar on the reg.

View attachment 327302

The problem that I'm running into with the tighter bore TJ barrel and this ammo is the pressure makes the probe give way before the slugs obturate and travel down the bore. In other words, these two little M3 set screws clamped to my music wire rod are no longer sufficient to hold the cocking rod in place and it winds up breaking free from the clamp.

View attachment 327305

I'm weighing my options, but I'm kind of drawing a blank beyond machining a newer, beefier clamp that would allow for more set screws to be used to secure the rod in place. It would be too much of a pain to thread the rod into the clamp, since I always micro-adjust the position of the rod/probe in the clamp to optimize the ammo seating depth in whatever barrel / ammo that I'm using. There's not enough meat to add more screws in the factory clamp.

I just went through all this. If you can get your position perfect on the rod you can put small notches on the rod itself so the set screws have something to sit into, but it needs to be really close to perfect. I did this when I made a hardened rod and then my screws were not hard enough to bite into the rod. The pressure from the shot would blow the pin probe back and the gun would lose all power. Eventually my hardened rod snapped as I believe I did not temper it properly... Now I have went the way of Rallyshark and have done a dual rod set up. You also could try using an actual 4mm bolt to hold your cocking rod. I can't actually get enough force using the Allen head set screws and tend to round them out. Below is pictures of my brand new set up. I ditched the original return guide in favor of an stainless one for strength. The secondary rod is actually very tight fitting into the guide and has a set screw on the front scope mount holding it. That rod also goes full length into the rear scope mount. So essentially the cocking block just slides over the secondary rod and adds lateral stability.

 

[bunkeru2k]

If you used basically used 2 rods there and made the clamp into a turnbuckle style connector, you could then use one of the rods as an adjuster. Would probably say to also mill one small part of the rod with wrench flats that make it easy to turn.